“Red, White & Righteous? Krish Dhanam on Patriotism & the Gospel!”

0:03 All right, five, four, three, two, one. All right. So, all right. Well, we're live now -ish, live -ish. So I'm so glad you could make it out today. I know you're busy. Your life's moving in a thousand directions. We're leaving tomorrow for Austin. I'm going to be praying for the open the Senate floor prayer on Thursday, but we're going to go down tomorrow and get settled in there. It's kind of an interesting thing. You know, you go up to that massive campus, the Capitol at Austin. It's so intimidating just walking in the place. And it's like catacombs in there. I've done this my third time, and I'm still thinking, which door do I need to go into? I can never remember.

0:48 I usually end up on the wrong end of the building. But so so I had a tight week, too, but I was so glad I could get you in. So thank you. I'm glad it worked out. Really glad you're here. And I'm looking forward to just hearing some of your story. And we'll do that in just a minute. I do want to take a moment to pray and welcome. Welcome our folks that are joining us today, either by audio or by video. Thanks for this is living up in a down world. We're thrilled that you're here. So let's bow our head for word of prayer. Father, thank you for. the privilege and the joy of getting to do what we do. Everything we do is such a privilege from you that we get to do it. We live in awe and wonder of who you are. And Lord, as we visit today, as we have a conversation today about God, the world, and other things, Lord, whatever you want to be said, we... We lean into that and rest into that. I pray for anyone who's watching today that they would find themselves lifted and encouraged by what they're hearing here today and that maybe they will be both encouraged and inspired on their journey of faith as well. And so we consecrate this to you and give it to you in Jesus' name.

1:51 Amen. This is Pastor Jimmy Pruitt. I want to welcome you today to Living Up in a Down World, and I have a very special guest that I'm so excited about, Krish Dunham. Did I say that right? Perfect.

2:32 Really? Okay, I'm shocked. But I want to welcome you to today's podcast, and thank you for being here and making time to be here. My joy. Thanks for having me. I know you've had a busy morning already. You've been teaching classes out at the Patriot Academy, and I want to get a little more into the Patriot Academy and how you ended up there. But I want to go back a little bit. I want to get back into your story because I was talking to Pastor Russ, and he said, you've got to get him to tell his testimony. So awesome. And your connection to Zig Ziglar, who has always been a hero from a distance for me. I never got to meet him, but I've learned so much just through his books. at the top right there was that was the one that i read that in college back in the day so tell me a little bit about just give us a little bit of your background your journey yeah to kind of summate it in a reader's digest version like the old people would say i was born and raised in india was raised in an orthodox brahmin family when i say orthodox people kind of wonder but my father's uncle's names are actually engraved on the temple stones in india so i came from piety and grew up in that tradition. Dad was a little more liberated from the standpoint that my father worked for an American company in India, and we would meet a lot of the expat kids while I was growing up. And so like most people in India and most people where I grew up, America was going to be the destination since I was about seven. So the dreams of getting here eventually went and did my business school in India, but met a young girl there who is the

4:02 opposite of every immigrant story. Her parents were students at Michigan State when she was born here, but she was raised in India. Her father came back to India and never wanted to stay. And so when I told my bride that I wanted to come here, she became an American citizen in India and came over in 84, brought me over in 86. So that's the background story and my upbringing in a different worldview. And like most young immigrants who came here who went to college, I didn't have that luxury. I ended up going to work. And the only job you can get in those days is sales. And so somehow I found my way. I won a couple of sales contests and ended up at a Zig Ziglar seminar. So that's the genesis. Zig Ziglar. There it is. So when I heard Mr. Ziglar speak in 1991 at the Irving Calvary Temple in Dallas on January 26th, my world changed. I suddenly realized there was possibility. He told me that I was not the little immigrant kid from a small town who would struggle all of his life, that I had the potential of God within me. I didn't know what that meant. Many years later, he was the one who led me to Christ. But I went to work for him in 1991. And in 1992, I caught his eye.

5:15 And he said he wanted me to be beside him. And that was the thing. I was his man Friday. I was his male nurse. I was his director of international ops. I co -wrote a book with him, traveled all over the world with him. And he became my spiritual father very young in a different country and pretty much raised me at a time when the father's influence was important. So that's the journey that took me from India. There's a lot of depth in that. I wrote about it in a book. But the reality is... He was just a remarkable human being, and I had the privilege of just a sidebar. I took his shoes to be shined in Iowa when nobody knew who I was. I was the only one he allowed to take to the bathroom when he had Alzheimer's and forgot who he was. We had that relationship.

6:02 Wow. Tell me, what was it about his character that riveted you, that drew you in? I want to spend time with that man. I want to know that man. Yeah, when I first heard him speak, like I said, in that January of 1991, he said some things and I filled eight pages of notes. But his colloquialisms were simple, very one -liners of great positivity. I somehow realized that at the end of that three -hour seminar, I had learned more in that three hours than all my college degrees, particularly when I got a master's. And like a typical Indian, I was educated. But his common sense wisdom was something that I was lacking in what I was raised with. To make it sound probably more eloquent now because I've been a speaker for 30 years, I was raised to compete. Mr. Ziegler taught me to complete. Love that. Love that. I love his colloquialisms. I love those short, easy to remember, just bites.

7:02 Always ask the question, you probably have too, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. And I used to, when I was in college, I would struggle with learning large pieces of content. But I learned to break them down into small bite -sized nuggets. Took that into ministry with me. I'm that way today. Everybody jokes about the Pastor Jay -isms. Right. Clarify your why. You know, you leak out what you're full of. You become what you behold. I mean, I've got a million of these. But Zig Ziglar kind of helped me with that because I learned the power of a nugget. A truth. you could hold and remember. Yeah, and one of the things that he said in the very early days that captivated me was, he says, you treat your wife like a thoroughbred, you won't end up with an egg. And in modern contextualization, it sounds like a sexist thing to say, but there's so much depth in it. And he would have all these things that were kind of quasi -edgy, but he also introduced me to the late, great Adrian Rogers, who also was a thing. And so I use Adrian Rogers' line now when I speak and say these edgy things. I said, but I'm man enough. And if you've been offended by what I say, I'm going to stand right here so you can come apologize. I love Adrian Rogers. My heritage, my Christian heritage was Southern Baptist. And so I went to Southwestern Seminary. And so he was kind of an icon in that world and such. Such an eloquent voice for the

8:33 gospel. So this was, I mean, you know, so like you said, even though I was not a Christian, all my early influence about people who were positive happened to come from the Baptist background because of Mr. Ziegler's own Baptist heritage. And then in 1993, something radical happened because I was following him. I was traveling with him. My wife, who was raised Christian, we had our boy. We're going to have our boy. And she says, I'm going to raise him in the faith. I didn't know what that meant. I said, more power to you. She said, we're going to get him baptized and my parents are going to come from India. So I said, it's a big deal. She says, yeah, it's a big deal. So I said, can I invite anybody? The only Christian I knew was important was Mr. Ziegler. And for me, it was almost self -serving that. Yeah, she'd have her family, but I'd have a celebrity. And when I asked Mr. Ziegler a very simple question, will you come to my son's baptism?

9:22 He asked me a question nobody had ever asked. He said, why do you want to send your son to someplace you're not sure you're going? Wow. And when I held my boy a little later in the hospital because we were preparing for the baptism before. I did not want to be separated from that feeling. And I told my mother -in -law who had prayed for me for seven years that when we baptized Nick, I'd like to be baptized too. So I had the privilege of being baptized with my son and Mr. Ziegler was in attendance. Oh, that is beautiful. Beautiful. I was going to ask how you came to know Christ and how that rolled out. And you know, it's amazing how God will put spiritual markers. In our lives, you know, and there'll be a handful of people that you can point back to and say, that one sowed this kind of seed, or this one said something that made me think this way and took me in a different trajectory.

10:09 And so how old were you when you finally? So this would have been circa 1930. This would have been 1993. So I was 31. 31. And so he, you know, he had that, that kind of very simple challenge as he. Another thing I was teaching this morning, one thing he taught me was, I said, will you be my mentor? Because I was fascinated by him. And many people asked him to be. So he says, you need to make a commitment to two things. And you need to sign this blank sheet of paper. And it was fascinating. Nobody had ever talked to me like that. But it was very simple and very practical. So I signed the blank sheet of paper. And on it, he wrote, today, I, Krish Dhanam, commit to being a 10 -year overnight success. Wow. He said, son, I'll be your mentor if you let me teach you the long game. And second, if you allow me permission to challenge every assumption you've ever held. Wow. Those two things changed my worldview, changed my trajectory. That introduction to faith allowed me to start a ministry and now share the gospel in 80 countries. Beautiful, brother. I love it. It makes my heart leap. I love that you. you were willing to ask him to be your mentor. And I have done that many times through the years. I learned the hard way back when I was playing tennis in high school. I thought if I can challenge people. to play me that are better than me, it's going to elevate my game, even though I'm going to get snot beat out of me every time, you know, if I can get over that, if I can get over losing someday, I'll win. And that's what I did. And I started as a young man

11:40 and through the years, especially when I stepped into faith, I didn't become a Christian until I was my last week of high school. So literally as I was stepping out of high school graduation, I became a follower of Jesus. Before that, I had no real point of reference. And so I was a blank slate going into college and step. into young adulthood and I was hungry for fathers spiritual fathers I didn't understand the concept back then I just knew that I would see somebody they were further down the road than me and I would go and I would ask them would you would you coach me would you mentor me would you lead me and so God put just a number of mature men in my life at various seasons that walked with me for a season and then their time was done it'd be time for somebody else and even to this day I reached out to Max Lucado has become a dear friend of mine. And about three years ago, I reached out to Max, four years ago now. I said, would you be my mentor? And he said, Jimmy, I'll be the worst mentor you've ever had. But yes, I will do it, but I'll be terrible. So when he texts me to catch up with me, he'll say, from the worst mentor ever, Max. But he mentors me from a distance. I don't demand his time. I study his teaching and preaching. But that's one person I'm... is on my list of people I'd like to meet, so now I know who knows him. Well, what you see is what you get with that man. He is the real

13:10 deal. I devoured all his books. I buy every book when it comes out. It's a sidebar, but I learned the art of the triad communication from his triad writing because he would always write in three forms. He would give three illustrations, goals, dreams, ambitions. He would always give you the track. When I started speaking like that, I realized that, everybody will pick one track, and you'll be able to get three people simultaneously. So it's a very unique style of writing he has. Beautiful. Very descriptive. Now, I don't know if he calls it that, but I said that I call it the triad method of teaching. Yeah, he always, like, will give you three illustrations. You would probably blow his mind if he said that. He said, there's a name for this? That's Max. When I met Max.

13:53 Funny story. I'm going to be really transparent here. I had been hired to come aboard of Oak Hills Church. It's the one that Max has led for years. And I was working for Dave Ramsey in Nashville. I was doing that. I was in that world. Go big or go home. That's Dave. But we knew we were called back to Texas. So I reached out to a friend who's working for Max. And I said, are there any openings there? I said, I've been doing. Financial Peaks University, a love day, but I'm a pastor. I need to be back doing what I'm called to do, even though I was doing it anyway in that environment. And sure enough, the door opened. Long story short, I ended up there. I had not had a chance to meet Max, but I bet all the other staff. I'm over there for a meeting in San Antonio.

14:39 I have to go for a bathroom break, right? I walk in there. Guess who's in there? Max. And, you know, man law. Where I grew up is you don't talk. You know, hey, how's it going? You mind your own business, right? He starts talking. I mean, he talks like we're standing at a – we're at a cafe or something. And, I mean, he's talking and talking. Well, he's in the little bay thing. He's talking. Well, I'm done. But I'm like, do I flush? Will I interrupt the conversation? This could be really awkward. So I finally just – I went ahead and flushed. And then I walked over and I washed my hands. He's still talking. Now I'm done. And he's still talking. So I'm just now standing in the doorway of the bathroom with Max Lucado talking. I thought, this is my story of how I met Max Lucado. It was in the men's room with him talking for an embarrassingly long time. And I still think about that. And the funny thing about it is he was exactly the same. in that bathroom as he is in the pulpit and as he is over a cup of coffee or eating a steak together at a restaurant. He's exactly the same. Yeah, the consistency is what you look for. Yes. Mr.

15:55 Ziegler was, you know, when people ask me, tell me about him. I said, if the dictionary ever went pictorial, the word consistency would have to have Mr. Ziegler's picture. Otherwise, don't buy it. What you saw is what you... I said, but I only knew him 20 years. I love that whole life integration. Somebody who's consistent wherever they are and their whole life is integrated. And isn't that what... salvation is? Isn't that what sanctification is, as we're on this journey and we're growing and maturing and learning? Hopefully over time, instead of being these scattered, fragmented individuals that we were in our 18 and 20s, that over time we begin to integrate the parts of who we are so that... Wherever you see us, we're the same. That's the goal. I think that's what Jesus modeled. But he was also, he knew what to be where he was when it was needed.

16:50 So if he needed to turn over some tables and fashion a whip of cords, he did. But if he needed to kneel in the dirt with someone caught in adultery, he did that too. It's beautiful. Yeah, in fact, when you're bringing that up, the two illustrations I do, which is, you know, when I teach, when I do the messages at conferences and all, I always bring a side that they've never considered. So I said, you know, the two most surprising stories in the Bible, both include our Lord, but I'm just looking at the other character. One was Lazarus, you know, he'd done the sick, he'd done the blind, and also it was time to raise the dead. So he tells Lazarus. Now, Lazarus already knew Jesus, and he'd been dead three days. So if we know our Bible to true, he's already in heaven. Well, Jesus is still on earth, and Lazarus gets a knock on his door and says, hey, you know what? We have a recall. And he says, man, please, those complaining sisters that heat the outdoor bathroom, is there any way I can avoid that?

17:45 So I said, even though it's a great story we tell, can you imagine that plight? We got a recall. You got to go back. Oh, my gosh. And the second one is the thief on the cross. Peter is still on earth, so he's not guarding the gate. Christ is still here. Pentecost hasn't happened, so he arrives in heaven, and someone says, on whose authority are you here? He said, the dude in the middle said, today. So I do it tongue -in -cheek for the youth to enjoy. I love it, brother. I love it. I always say this, that if God doesn't have a sense of humor, if we find out at the end, I'm in big trouble. I'm in really big trouble. So I had a moment today where I just felt the playfulness of God in a moment. We had a staff meeting. At our staff meeting, we always start off with just, I wouldn't even call it a devotional.

18:29 I don't want to minimize it to that. It's really a much deeper thing where I just share what's going on in my heart and what God's been doing. And I shared a little bit about just Brother Lawrence and Frank Laubach. The book Practicing His Presence was a real impactor on me as a young Christian. And I was sharing that story. And so Pastor Russ, he brings up. We're talking about John Eldridge now. John Eldridge is doing some really neat, deep work right now. Wild at heart. Wild at heart. John's been a real, he doesn't know it, but he's been a mentor to me as well. I've got a lot of mentors they don't know. They don't know who I am, but they've mentored me. And big impact on both Russ and I. So Russ says, I'm going to, on my phone, I'm going to play this. exercise at the end of john's new book in the in the and it's where he leads you into a prayer of descent where you go into and you're trying to trying to find that inner person and and so we did it and i did i don't know that i expected much other than just wow peaceful moment right here in john pray and as he's praying i literally in my mind's eye I see myself following Jesus down a path. Oh, wow. And it's like, I don't know if you've ever heard of Carlsbad Caverns, Carlsbad, New Mexico. It's a fascinating place.

19:40 And there's these little walkways and paths through these stalagmites and stalactites and beautiful formations. It's stunning, but it's deep into the hole in the ground cave. So I was in a very scene like that. Jesus. opens the door and this prayer of descents taking you deeper in and he opens the door and i'm just seeing this in my mind's eye like i'm watching a movie and he looks at me he goes you coming and he smiles at me it's that playful oh wow impish grin you coming so i walk up to the door and then we get in one of those little awkward moments that christians do at door no you go no no you go no yeah we're both saying it and we're both laughing and then he then i i He lets me go first. And I walk in and what I realized, it was my heart. It was a descent into my heart. And when I walked in and I knew before I got there, it's going to be bigger on the inside than it is the outside.

20:35 And as soon as I stepped in, it's like I saw galaxies. Like if you step out on a cold Texas night and no, I mean, it is just brilliant skies. And it was that. And I was immediately there and just was. in awe of the vastness of it but and then and then the prayer ended and we sort of came out of that and and uh it was just the playfulness of jesus and i just thought he was smiling he was laughing that and that may be just my view of him how i see him but i do find him to be playful yeah and chesterton says that he says that you know we know where jesus wept but When you look up at the hope and the gleefulness or the hopefulness or the playfulness of Jesus, through all of the turmoil, we have to say that he had to have some mirth to go through it. And I'm known in India and globally, I have the moniker of the laughing evangelist. Beautiful, beautiful.

21:37 That's a good thing to be known as. I had a very serious thinker come up to me in India. He says, I see where it says Jesus wept. I didn't see where he says he laughed. I said, oh, that's present continuous. He said, what do you mean? I said, he's laughing at both of us right now. I said, I can't believe I entrusted these two yokels with the Great Commission. Of all the problems in the world he's worried about. I would have high -fived you right there at the moment. Mr. Ziegler had a line about laughter, which is why he used to use it. He says there's some new scientific evidence that's come out that if you have a tendency to laugh and you suppress the laughter, it'll come back inside and spread your hips. So let it out. Let it go or else you'll pay for it later. He said it'd be expensive on the wardrobe. I love that. Well, there's a scripture that says that he was filled with joy more than all of his brethren. You see that God laughed over the nations, danced over the nations. I mean, he laughed at the kings. There's too much in there of levity and life. And I can't help but believe that the word soteria would not encompass the joy and laughter of life, one of the fruit of the spirit. I love the joy. I can imagine, you know, Christ, the encounter with Paul and saying, man. I got to turn this guy around. No kidding. And he's going to be my emissary to the kings and the Gentiles. And then looking at Peter saying, oh man, this guy is just like, even the scripture says that after the resurrection, the women got there first. So Peter was slow.

23:03 So he's like a slow, reluctant guy. I've always wondered about that. The slow, reluctant guy is going to be the one on whom he builds the church. I said, there's hope for us. And then Jesus was like, I can't reveal myself to you. So Mary, get over here. You know, meets him at the door, slams the door in his face and moves on. But I love the fact that there is levity in the scripture. Now, I do appreciate the way that Dallas Jenkins and the guys of the chosen have. played that, the plausibility of laughter and joking. And I love that they've done that. I think they're doing a lot right now to reveal a side of Christianity and a side of Jesus through Jonathan Rumi playing Jesus. The David? Yes.

23:44 Oh, last night I'm like, is it out yet? Is the new one out? I'm caught up. So I was at the NRB a week and a half or two weeks ago when they showed it up there. Oh, it's so good. Yeah, it's quite brilliantly done. It is powerful. Because that's the side of David we don't get to hear. And so I had to go back and read some of this thing, the Torah, the exegesis and all that. About his mother. You know, I didn't know that he was, you know. Those are real deal goose pimples right there. I mean, I've got chill bumps thinking about it because as we were watching, I told her, she said, did you know that? I'm going, actually, no, I feel bad. I got out first Samuel. I started tracking along. I'm like. I did not see that. There's a lot of hidden gems in there that they mined out. They've done a brilliant job with it. So really appreciative of what Dallas has done. We got to go visit on the set during the second season. So Annette and I were on set that day and got to have lunch with the cast and hang out with them. And it was such a good time. But it was also... I got to see behind the scenes and how much work goes into this production.

24:49 I had no idea the work that goes into that. Yeah, we were actually, our team in Dallas produced a movie called The Least of These, which is also on Amazon. But Stephen Baldwin was, it was based on the life of a missionary by the name of Graham Staines, who was martyred in India. And that was as recent as 1999. An Australian missionary was burnt alive with his two boys, Philip and Timothy. And so I was preaching in India and I got a chance. Someone came up to me and said, I have this script. And we won a bunch of ICBM awards and all that. Beautiful. So I brought it back. And my friend, Victor Abraham in Dallas, bankrolled the whole thing. It was about a $5 million production. And so we did it on set in India. It's huge. Nice. I'll watch it. It's called The Least of These, The Graham Stain Story. The Graham. Yeah. So Gladys, the beauty of that story is after she realized that her husband and...

25:42 two boys were burnt alive at the same time. And she was just left with her daughter, Esther. And the government officials came and said, you have to be strong for Esther. Her next words were, whoever did this, we will forgive them. Wow. And the government of India saw that as horrid as it was, they gave her one of India's highest honors saying, the darkest day in India was given light by this woman's forgiveness. And when her husband's funeral was taking place, there's a YouTube clip of that. She's sitting with her daughter following the, Following the casket. Oh, my goodness. And the song that plays is Because He Lives, We Confess Tomorrow. Wow. That is... Beautiful. Yeah. Only Jesus. Yeah. So I've written a Bible study on that and along with the screenwriter that we've done apologetics on what is truth and all that. So, but yeah, I'll show you, I'll share some of that with you later. I'd love to see, I'd love to see that.

26:33 I'd like to also hear a little bit about how you got connected with Rick Green and Kara and the green team, I call them and how you ended up helping them at the Patriot Academy. So that, yeah, so we, everything is. It's continuous, you know, as they say, coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous. So Rick came to Mr. Ziegler's office while I was working there. I was a telemarketer and traveling with Mr. Ziegler. Rick's dad had used Mr. Ziegler in Arkansas for some sales meetings before Mr. Ziegler really hit it big. So he knew Richard Green, the senior. And so Rick used that leverage and came to the office. had a book. At that time, Rick will also admit he was Tony Robbins with a big influence on his life. He told me that. Jumping all over the place. Fundamental difference between Zig Ziglar and Tony Robbins was Tony Robbins was NLP mind control and Ziglar was free will. There you go. So I knew teams on both sides. So one day Rick shows up and Mr.

27:30 Ziglar introduces me to him. He says, this is a young man and I've known his father, but I want you guys to be friends. At that time, Rick was writing a book. And at the same time, I was going through a turmoil because we had a manager at the Ziglo Corporation who was creating some hassle for me. And 20 people already resigned the previous day because they didn't like this manager. So I also turned in my resignation because I had met Rick and Rick said, why don't you come work for me? He had started a small company. But giving me a big title. I was a telemarketer. He was going to make me VP of that typical mindset. So I turned into my resignation. Mr. Ziegler called me to his house and I said, well, I'm going to go work for a green. I can't work for this company anymore. I don't like this guy.

28:15 He said, well, I'm rejecting your resignation letter. Don't worry about the other guy. He'll be gone in the morning. Now come to my office in the morning and I have something to say to Rick too. So we went to the office and I'm, this is a story. This is true. So I'm in Mr. Ziegler's office and we dialed Rick Green. Rick answers. He says, Rick, this is your old buddy. He's like, oh, Mr. Ziegler. He says, now, Rick, you've submitted a manuscript to me that you wanted me to endorse. He says, I'm going to tell you two things you're not going to like. One is I'm not endorsing your book. You're not ready for it. Second, you can't have Krish. He's not ready for you. Give him to me for 10 more years. Go work on your manuscript for a couple of years. Mature a little bit. I'll endorse it a little later. And one thing I promise you, you both will be lifelong friends. So I stayed back with Mr. Ziegler. Rick came back with the book later. Mr. Ziegler endorsed it.

29:05 And then when Rick, we stayed friends. And then I was there the night Rick proposed to Kara. I was the speaker for his event the night Rick proposed to Kara. And I officiated the wedding of Frey. Wow. So we go way back. You do, you do. So when he started Patriot Academy, I used to give whatever time I could, go wherever. Anytime he started a new academy, he would invite me as clergy to do the charge. But I taught at all his academies and I was rated fairly high because I brought the apologetics and the worldview. And so I've been part of Patriot Academy speaking since the third one, I think. Wow. So I've done it a long time. Wonderful. About six years ago, he said, you know, my goal is to start a campus wherever God allows us. And I want you to at that point, you'll be ready because this is I'm 63. I'm a little about 10 years older than him.

29:52 So he says, will you join me at that season? So that was always the design that we would do something together to fulfill Mr. Ziegler's legacy. Beautiful. Love that. But this was sped up because the Texas Capitol reconstruction, we had to bring Tara suddenly in 11 months had to put that thing up. It was wild. So he reached out to me last year and said, well, the timetable has changed. We're going to start an academy next year and I need you to come down as the dean. My apprehension was my wife has some medical conditions. All her doctors are in Dallas and all. But the first time she came here, she fell in love with it more than I did. And she started convincing me, this is what God wants us to do. I want you to be around these kids. On a personal story, we've had a little grief with our own son who became a casualty of the culture. He lives in Boston.

30:39 Yeah, I understand. And God gave me 12 young interns to pour into who hang on our every word. So it was almost like... Everything has come full circle. Wow. But, you know, I travel around and people say, what's so great about Texas? And I jokingly say, you know, it's the simplest state to live in. If it's moving, we tend to hug it. If it's not, we sell it. If it argues, we shoot it. It's the easiest way to make a decision. We don't call 911, that's for sure. I love that. So in Texas, concealed carry is a skunk. And open carry is a porcupine. That's true, brother. It's true. But, yeah, so we've been friends.

31:21 I've known the kids, you know. So when I bully the kids, they come to me and say, Mr. Dunham, you said this. I said, first thing, remember, I knew you before you were born. So stop it. So Trey is the only one who has an affection to me that is different because I was the firstborn and I had his wedding and all that. All the kids have pretty much grown up around me, and it's such a joy to be on the campus and do life with them, meet their new life partners and explore into them. It's happening fast. I've only known Rick three years, and already, I mean, a lot of life has happened in the last three years with the campus. See, I live two miles past the campus. I drive by it every day. So I see what's happening. I see, oh, there's eight more tiny homes. Oh, there's another ten. I mean, I've watched all that go up. So I met Rick three years ago at a Lincoln Reagan dinner. Oh, wow. It was the first one they had here in Fredericksburg in Gillespie County. And he was one of the featured speakers. And just like when I see somebody I want to be around, I go be around them. So I was sitting there going. I leaned over to Annette and I said, I don't know who this guy is, but he's got something I like. His fire, his positivity, his energy. I said. I said, I need that guy in my life. And we met that night. Yeah, so I mean, he does the 300 words a minute with Gus up to 600. And he's got so much to say, and he wants to say it all at the same time. And I like to take a little breath every once in a while. So we were speaking at an event together. And they

32:54 said, do you have any? So they asked him for his PowerPoint of like 84 slides. They asked me, do you have any PowerPoint? I said, no. They said, you don't? I said, no, I just make my point with power. So we've been, you know, of course, he's being younger than me, but we've been brothers for a long time. And it's just, you know, and now I look back and I see the genius of a man who says, you can't have him. Give him to me for 10 more years and you'll be lifelong friends. It's amazing. Don't publish this book. You'll be ashamed of it. Work on it for three more years and you'll be proud. He told me that story about getting dissed on that book. He said that was a hard pill to swallow. He goes, he was absolutely right. Yeah. And he, the first time I met Rick, you know, he had the whole Tony Robbins and whole headphones before it was cool. And he's jumping up on stage and he looked at me and he says, He says, so are you into Tony Robbins? I said, no, I grew up in India. You walk on fire there because you're bored. It's like, you don't do it to bust through anything. You do it to con people. It's like, you know, it's like breaking a board to have a, why? You know, I said, I can understand the concept of breaking through and breaking a barrier. And I've done it. I've broken the arrows and done all that stuff. But I said, at the end of the day, I like Mr. Ziegler. He's just cool, calm, you know. A big shot is just a small shot who kept on shooting. That's all.

34:18 Oh, brother. So, anyhow, that's the genesis of both stories. Oh, it's beautiful. My word for the year, every year I do a word. And sometimes I get something fresh, sometimes I don't. This year, I got the word convergence. This is a season where things are converging, coming together. And just the story you just told me, I see, we were talking about the connectivity. In fact, on our staff meeting, we were talking about how everything is interconnected. This had to happen to get you where you are, even the bad stuff, even the ugly, weird stuff. Had to happen because it got you where you are now. So don't disdain. Don't live with regret. Just say, okay, that needed to happen because it positioned me. And God is... positioning people i'm just blown away here and honestly when i came to fredericksburg nine years ago i thought i was coming here to quietly retire i'm just going i'm gonna i'm going to small sleepy town we're just gonna relax i and i remember the guy hired me said do you have one more in you and i said i do i do yeah i do i felt like i do and uh he didn't know what he was saying and i didn't know what i was answering but but what what happened when When Max gave the reins to the church, gave us this church, he looked at me, he said, we're holding you back.

35:36 I'm holding you back, Jimmy. And I said, man, no. I said, no, no, coach. And he goes, no, I mean it. He said, you're an extension of a city church in a country town. He said, it'll always be limited. The last thing they need is me over there preaching and you hitting play on a machine. They need a pastor. And so that's how that all came about. But I love the wisdom of that. But all those things had to happen to get us where we are today. So now here we are. 2019, we became the bridge. Six months later, COVID hit. That was fun. Okay, so we had to think quick and make pivot and do all kinds of things. We figured it out pretty quickly. But yet God has been faithful through the whole journey. Things had to happen.

36:23 I look back on COVID. First of all, it woke up a lot of people. So let's talk about it just in that arena a little bit. Tell me about your background and your heart for America and why that has become a pivotal part of your life. Well, it's ironic that I was, you know, as a kid, my dad worked for an American company, like I said. we were given quarters where all the whites lived so we lived in a secluded fairly american environment so sunday evenings they would only bring american movies to cater to the expat so i grew up watching john wayne movies and all of that other stuff so was a big connoisseur of the west and as one day i told my dad when i was about seven or eight i don't remember when i said pop um he said what's your goals i said i'm gonna go to america he said what you do i said i don't know i'll be a truck driver there I want to live in the Wild West, kind of, jokingly.

37:23 My dad took it seriously because he knew he said that you always had persistence. My dad was always convinced that I would do something different. So academics was kind of quasi -okay, not very bright, all that stuff. But my dad, when I was about eight, said, son, I want you to start reading American history. I said, why? He said, one day you'll get there. And I don't want you to be a second -class citizen to anybody. So I learned American history while I was in India, carrying European history and Indian history as part of course curriculum. So I remember when I went through my citizenship test, an African -American lady looked at me and said, oh, you know, on your test, you can expect questions like Emancipation Proclamation. What happened? When was the Emancipation Proclamation? And I didn't think of when. I was going to give her the verbal dump of Abraham Lincoln and the whole nine years. She says, oh, no, honey, in America, it's multiple choice.

38:11 And I knew I was going to make it. When I came here, I realized how little people had as respect. In India, when you go through Indian history, you're taught pride. When you go to French history, you're taught pride. America is the only country you can come from anywhere in the world and claim identity. You can go from here and be French or German or Indian. You're always going to be an expat. But I thought of the ingratitude that the folks had. And I came at the tail end of Reagan, and I was already seeing that lackadaisical attitude. It was quite different from the... the John Wayne America, you know, the quite different from, but one thing I realized very quickly that gratitude becomes the healthiest of all human emotions. Most of these people are miserable because they don't have gratitude for what they have. I agree. And on a napkin, I remember very early, I wrote, I will always have something up to look to. I will always have something to lean on. And I always want to be proud of where I stand. It's beautiful. And I started studying America. So my first book was called The American Dream from an Indian Heart. Wow. And the premise of the book was, if you can't make it in this country, don't pack. You ain't going to make it anywhere else. Wow. And that suddenly people started waking up to me and saying, how do you know so much? I said, it's not a question of knowing so much. It's a question of the depth.

39:29 So when I read Dr. King's speech, when I first came to America as a young immigrant thinking, okay, that's what different people have to do. Because Dr. King talked about character. Very quickly, I realized as I speak to communities all over the country, I said, most of you hung on to the first verse of his speech and stayed there. And it liberated a group of people. But none of you have ever looked at the second where he says, I have a dream that every little black boy and every little black girl in the great state of Alabama, where the governor's lips drip with nullification and interposition. I said, do you realize that came true? And the people in those communities who look at me say, what do you mean? I said, do you realize there was a four -year period in American history where a black girl from Alabama and a white boy from Texas had their picture in every embassy around the world, George Bush and Condoleezza Rice.

40:13 Wow. So I said, for me, character is the pride in the mundane. I said, when Dr. King was talking about character, I think the divinity in him said that everybody will be invited to the banquet, but only character will keep you there. Wow. And that's what I, so as I started teaching, this community started inviting me saying, Wait a minute, all we had was the rage that came with that, but you're talking about possibility in this. And suddenly Mr. Ziegler said, wait a minute, son, you're discovering things that we have glossed over. You may be the last great salesman we have for America. So he started introducing me as Twilight. He said, this is my legacy. He ain't black or white. He's my twilight. So my last book was called Twilight, How One Man's Unity Universe Changed My Universe, Acts 1726. Wow.

40:58 So it's a dedication to Mr. Ziegler. Brother, that is beautiful. And yeah, so that's the... But I love it. It took somebody with a different worldview to come and see things from a different perspective, a different angle. Because growing up here, there's a sense of privilege and entitlement that's just baked in. You just expect things to work. You expect things to be the same relatively your whole life. Yeah, when people ask me what motivates you, I said hot water. Now, we had running water. If you needed it, you ran and got it. But that's not reasonably far from the truth. My mother was a child bride. Father was studying under a streetlight. But I tell these people, I have used Mr. Ziegler's philosophy on that man, my father, who studied under a streetlight.

41:42 One day my dad came to me, 75. He's now retired. He's now lamenting that he's helped everybody. He said, son, is there hope for me? And I remember making a statement to my father in front of a group of 300. I said, pop, when your obligations to others finish, your obligations to your dreams remain because God created you uniquely for a purpose. And at the age of 75, we enrolled my father back in the university using his degree from 1955. At the age of 84, my father got his PhD. At the age of 90 now, he's in a retirement home. He just submitted a thesis, postdoctoral research on his own thesis. He dragged my mom back through college. And at the age of 75, my mom got her master's shortly before she passed. Both of them got their advanced degrees at the same convocation. And in their acceptance speech, they said, Our son is our hero. He made us do this. Love that. So I met a guy. We were having our tile work done in our house, and his name was Laszlo. Very different. He had a very thick accent, European, Eastern Bloc type accent. And I asked him where he's from. He said, actually, I'm Polish. I said, you have a beautiful accent, brother. I love your accent. And we were talking, and the border issue was really hot. This had been about two years ago. Border issue was really.

42:56 And I asked him a question. I said, how long have you been in the States? He told me. And he owns his own company, his tile company, construction company. And I said, tell me, what? give me your opinion on what's happening at the border and he was he got animated he got fired up he said they're criminals yeah he said their first act of coming into america is to break the law he said i did it the right way i jumped through all the hoops i learned the history he said now i value what i have he said that's the difference and poland is the only country in western europe that has no problems because they don't allow anybody in in fact the polish guy The prime minister just said, we're not going to let anybody in who wants to change our culture. Hungary did the same thing. The two countries that are being vilified. I mean, I teach world history in a different way. I've been to Poland. I visited Auschwitz. I asked the Polish people. They said, never again. We're never again. The fortification of Warsaw is designed so a person like Hitler could not walk over and designate a city. They'll never forget. You have to learn. So we've got a break. I love the preamble you do where you do the State of the Union before you give a message.

44:07 And it's very important. For the last four years during the debacle, I used to tell people, I said, stop saying God bless America. And they would look at me. I said, get on your knees and say, God save America. He already blessed it and you screwed it up. Come on, brother. Make America godly again. I've not been able to shake this. First of all, I've always believed that America is not a good idea that God blessed. America is a God idea that we get the privilege of stewarding. We have to steward what we have. So there's the responsibility piece for me. The second part is that America doesn't have a political problem. We have a spiritual problem. And that to me is... The only thing that can change the human heart is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Nothing else. Nobody is clever enough, smart enough.

44:57 If anybody can talk you into something, somebody else can talk you out of it. So we know it's got to be a true transformation. And that is the hope for America. I think we have a window. We've been given a window. It seems that we've been given sort of a green light. It seems like. It feels like we've got a hall pass to actually go do something and move some things. I just saw where on Sunday I announced that. Twelve states in America are putting forth bills to get the Ten Commandments back in classrooms. Well, as of today, it's 15 states. So we're seeing a movement. There's a movement happening right now. And those are good things. They speak to a broader issue, and that is that there are people saying we've got to get back to where we started.

45:46 We've got to go back to be in the future, back to the future kind of thing. We've got to guarantee our future. We've got to go back to where this started. That's why I have such a love affair with the monument to the forefathers in Plymouth. Have you ever been there? I haven't, but, I mean, of course, we carry one at the PA. I've got them everywhere. Here's the other one that you would really like. It's a lesser -known thing, but opposite the UN is a park, and it's called the Isaiah Wall. So later on, Google it. There's a scripture about the plowshares being dismantled and all of that other stuff. Right, yes. But across the UN, there is actually a biblical scripture on what is called the Isaiah Wall, and nobody talks about it. Isn't that wild? In fact, in Scotland, when religion was going away, people said maybe because we have eradicated completely from the civic and we've tried to separate church and state. We maybe, if we build our civic centers next to churches, some of the morality will rub off. They were still clinging to it in some way.

46:46 In some way, there was a reaching. You know, when I study world, because I teach apologetics and I teach world history through the lens of that narrative. So one of the books that I encourage everybody who's watching this and who, you know, who was part of your extended family, everybody needs to read the New England Primer. It's a book that now David Barton's Wall Builders publishes. And it's now in the refined English, so the words are not transposed. But the New England Primer, I think Benjamin Harrison's first published in 1677. Wow. And it had A in a Bible verse, B in a Bible verse. And first grade people in that one room schoolhouse were learning words like abomination and, you know, polysyllabic words. And I always tell people, what did the first 50 years of this country teach in one book in the first grade? that produce the likes of Washington, Madison, and Monroe, and Adams. And you tell me if someone of that ilk in the last 50 years, it's because we have polluted ourselves with garbage. Absolutely. And it's a small little book, and I keep a box of it in my house in Dallas.

47:45 And anybody who's not conservative or not Christian, when they come to my house, I said, I don't have much to give you, but I'll give you the gift. Beautiful, beautiful. It's called the New England Primer. And it's, I think, a must read because we'll now understand the likes. of why Daniel Webster at the age of 15 was able to go to Exeter Academy. Brilliant. So, in fact, when the interns I teach, I teach them the same thing. Love that. I said, I'm your tutor, I'm your dean, but the journey I've taken to get here from the rural part of southern India is nothing less than miraculous. There you go. I came to America with $9, Pastor, in my pocket and a dream. And I remember the first day I landed in UJFK Airport. Wow. Immigration.

48:27 There were only two lines. And two signs, 1986. One said citizens, the other said others. My wife was a citizen. Even though she became a citizen in India, she went through others. She said, honey, that's your line. She said, I'll be waiting for you at baggage claim. Well, two hours later, she came knocking because I was still being, this was before the internet thing. They were processing me, fingerprints. I came with a medical clearance. I came with a police clearance. I came with everything. But I'll never forget what that immigration officer said to Anila. I said, ma 'am, we're doing it the right way. Give me 15 more minutes, and I'll finish processing your husband, and he'll never have to look over his shoulder again. Ah, beautiful.

49:08 Wow. Ten years later, in New York, I'm sitting in Mayor Rudy Giuliani's seats watching a Yankee game, The American Dreamer, come true. Brother. We are truly blessed here. We are blessed. What I love about you, and I love what I'm hearing, and I'm getting it in spades, is you live a grateful life. That's my and my wife's moniker. We live a grateful life. No matter what happens, in our own spiritual and life journey, we've lost things. We've lost everything a couple of times. And you know what? We survived just fine. You know what? We found out we didn't need all that stuff. And we realized... After you've lost something and God has restored, you realize you have nothing to fear ever again. And you can just live grateful.

49:53 Every day I get up, I say I hit the lottery this morning. I woke up. I get to do this. I got another day to do this, to live this life. And so I hear that spirit off of you. It's why I'm drawn to you. It's why I'm drawn to Rick. I'm drawn to people who have that spirit on them. Yeah, that old adage was, you know, if you're ever having a bad day, think of the garbage collector with a weak stomach. Or if you're ever having a bad day, try missing one. Either one will wake you up pretty quick to the gratitude of life. I love it, brother. Last thing before we go, I just want to hear, what would you say to someone who's watching this today? I mean, what is it that's... that always percolates out of you when you don't even mean to. It's just there, your core value, your core heart. Yeah, and it's an amalgamation of different things, but it's one of the quotes that's attributed to me that if you went online, typed in my name in whichever way, again, I'm not selling anything, but years ago I wrote this and I still live by it. Plan with attitude. That is will. Prepare with aptitude. That is skill.

51:01 Participate with servitude. That is humility. Receive with gratitude. That is honor. And that will separate you from the multitudes. Plan with attitude. Prepare with aptitude. Participate with servitude. Receive with gratitude. And that will separate you from the multitudes. I love that. If you want to go from a 97 % comfort zone thinker to a 3 % effective zone thinker, just remember this. Yesterday ended with last night. Today is the first day of the rest of your life. Happy birthday to you. Brother, so let's make the rest of our life the best of our life. Amen. We do it. And I stole something from your sermon yesterday, which is going to be my devotion title next week. Now that I'm here, I can admit it. But you use the words in a different context, but they asked me what my devotion is going to be next Monday. I'm doing someone's Zoom devotion.

51:47 I said, turning your, moving from how to well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a big revelation for me because I was always that kid who wanted to know. Don't tell me the time. I want to know how that watch works. I mean, I was always backwards looking. I'm fascinated by moving parts and systems and systemic things. And so the Lord had to grow me down to grow me up. He had to grow me like a child and begin to just be playful and go, wow. Yeah, and the global perspective changes. You know, I've traveled to many countries. I've preached in countries where. The question is not a serious question on our exegesis. This question is not on denominationalism or prosperity.

52:27 When a pastor holds your hand and says, Pastor, what would you tell a congregation when your church was burnt last week and you're meeting under a tree? How do I give them hope? And the answer is, you know, you have to dig deep for that because you have to hold their hands. And we are so quick to give answers because that is our way of thinking. We want to fix stuff. That's the one thing I learned in grief is that I tell even my students here, I say, don't look at someone across the table trying to make a solution possible. Stand next to them side by side. Otherwise, John 3 .16 is a lie. Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, died for those who don't know him. So the greatest and the weakest, stand next to them and let the Jesus in you find the Jesus in them. Just leak out what you're full of and let him lead the way. There's an old saying about that. Mr. Ziegler used to use this analogy about how Christians used to live, and it'll be a tongue -in -cheek funny one. But he said the mama skunk and the baby skunk were walking next to the paper mill, and if any of you have lived there, you know that pungent odor that comes from there that stinks up the environment.

53:38 And the baby skunk tells the mama skunk, Mama, what's that stink? And the mama skunk says, I don't know what it is, but we got to go get some. I said, ooze the sweet aroma of Jesus. So people say, we got to get some. I do know what a paper mill smells like, by the way. I figured you would because of that. I actually do. When you said that, I went, oh, I know exactly what he's talking about. Anyhow, so that, yeah, we just, I tell people, you know, one day at a time, one breath at a time. My friend Victor Abraham reminds me, he says, laughter is the best medicine, but if you find yourself laughing for no reason, you need medicine. Come on, brother. Come on. So I just, I try to chuckle my way. I've been in very hostile situations sharing the gospel, Middle Eastern country. So I've always used holy humor to cope. Come on, brother. You have to. Yeah.

54:28 So, but you know, someday as we... I love the friendship. I love the fact that we get to worship with you and make this our home church as we start moving to a more permanent basis. And so thank you for what you do. You lift our hearts on Sunday. And you guys just... I've been very welcoming of us, and that's truly, you know. Wherever Manila and I have gone, we've been the only ones that look like us. Your wife is a delight, brother. You out -punted your coverage. Yeah, that's a— I'm serious. You married her. She's sharp. As the old saying goes, I cannot respect a man who does not over -marry. That's right. Amen, brother. Most people aim low and hit. I aimed high and missed and got a whole bunch of stuff I didn't agree on. Brother, I know because I did the same thing. I tell people, as Adrian Rogers would say, he says, if she ever leaves me, I'm going with her. Brother, you're a delight.

55:21 And thank you for being with us today. My joy. This will not be the last time. I hope. I'd love to have you back. I love the style. The conversational style just allows. And I think the people watching will be enriched because somebody out there needs that. It's okay. It is. The good guys and good gals really do win. I call it Igbok. It's going to be okay. I saw that on a coffee mug in Franklin, Tennessee. I stole that. I'm not buying that coffee mug, but I'm taking that saying. Igbok, it's going to be okay. And it is going to be okay. You know, one of the things Lucado said, which was very – he says, you know, we all – I think it was in six hours one Friday, and I'm paraphrasing. But we all think time is on our side. When people say, why should I act now?

56:09 I love how Lucado put it. He said, did Mary know that 24 hours later she would be cradling the body of her son? Did John know that 24 hours later he'd be anointing the body of his slain hero? But most importantly, did Pilate know that 24 hours later he would be forever credited with being the architect of the Messiah's death? When I put those three in context, I realized one was a mother who gave birth to him. One was the one who is... vilified for having crucified him. And the other was the one who devoted himself and then emulated him in the Gospels. And all three of them did not know what was going to happen 24 hours later. And none of us do, but we have to. One of the poems, if you get a chance, read a poem called La Pieta. La Pieta, P -I -E -T -A. It was written by Admiral Jeremiah Denton, who was the highest ranking officer in Vietnam, captive in Vietnam. Of course, known for the fact that he blinked through Morse code. They held him for propaganda, but he blinked through Morse code. And he became a senator from Alabama.

57:13 But if you get a chance to read a really good book, it's a book called When Hell Was in Session. And this poem, La Pieta, is in there. And I won't break it, but I've memorized it for that reason. because it ends with when all is lost, all is actually won. Wow. Wow. That's the crucifixion. That's it, brother. When all was lost, all was won. All was won. And heaven and hell got put on notice. Thank you, brother. My joy. I so appreciate it. My joy. We'll land a plane with this. First of all, for all of our listeners and our watchers, you're going to hear this audio or you'll see it on video. And we want to say thank you. Thank you for being here with us today and joining us in this conversation about life, about God, the world and other things. And so appreciate, so appreciate, appreciate being with us today.

58:07 Listen, go to our website, livingupinadownworld .com and subscribe and like and join us. We just want to say that we love you and our heart for you is to live up in a down world. amazing day on purpose.