"One's Company, Two's a Crowd, and Three's a Family"

0:00 This is Jimmy and Annette and we are excited to be with you today. Of course we always have our sidekick Chevy. Mr. Chevy and he is in true form right now, isn't he? He sure is. His eyes are absolutely closed. He saw me setting up the chairs and he went nuts. And we're doing this a little early. He's kind of confused. He is confused because what is today? What is today? It's Thursday. We normally do our podcast on Mondays. But we'll still air it on Monday. Of course Monday evening. Monday PM like always. But anyway. We have a special guest. We do. So the reason we're doing this early is we have a very special guest. And we've mentioned Pastor Chris who is our son who pastors a great church in Houston called City Life Church. And he and our youngest Jackson. Youngest grandson. Youngest grandchild. Yeah I know y'all can't believe we have grandkids but we actually do. And he's here as well and we've got him visiting the other room.

1:21 We may hear from him later in the show. We'll see. But if he does that's great. So it's great to have Chris with us. He pastors a great church. City Life Church. And they're knocking it out in Houston, Texas. Been there 13 short years. Brief years. Would you say short or would you say long? You know sometimes it feels longer and sometimes it feels shorter. It's weird. That is true. Yeah. So you're on sabbatical as well. We've been sharing the beginning of our sabbatical journey which we started on Monday. And now we've got him working. We have him working on his sabbatical. This isn't work. Oh okay. Okay. This is us having a conversation around the dinner table when Chris was 17. Oh okay. Well he's not 17 anymore. Usually work you get paid so it's not worth it. No doubt. No doubt. Well Chris thanks for being with us today.

2:10 I'm glad to be here. We were hanging out and enjoying a great afternoon. Beautiful day here in the Texas Hill Country. And I had I thought let's just do a podcast today since Chris is here and let's have Chris on the show. So we're thrilled that you're here. Yeah glad to be here. How's your sabbatical going? We've been sharing our journey. We're gonna continue to do that over the next few weeks. So how's it going? Yeah I'm doing an eight week sabbatical as well. This is the first time I've ever done it. And I've been doing full-time ministry for almost 23 years. Almost as long as I've been married. And so yeah it's been it's been really great. I'm in week five right now. So you know it takes a good week, week and a half maybe to wind down. Get out of work mode so to speak. But yeah really enjoying it right now. And you know when you love what you do you don't you do miss it. So it's kind of it takes work to get out of work. Yeah a little bit.

3:06 It took a lot of work to prepare for it. Yeah yeah to prepare for it and then to wind down and then to you know just make sure that your identity is not wrapped up in your work. And that's one of the best things about taking off I think. And so just trying to be a human being and not a human doing right. So one of our pastors that was helping us with our sabbatical said you've got to break the addiction of work. Sure. Because it can become an addiction and if it becomes an addiction it it's harder to to disconnect. Yeah. From work and so you're right. That's it's good. What you said is right on. So yeah yeah it's it's overdue for me but you always have that feeling of well I don't want to be looked at in a certain way or I don't want to not contribute. Like I know with my staff I'm like I feel bad that I'm not there helping out because they're there but then also what does that say about me? And wanted to make sure like no they could do without me. In fact it's better to empower them and and frankly I just needed need some rest and kind of let the ground just grow whatever grows instead of constantly going and going. Right. So well I did some reading and pastor Eddie Freeman from Getway Church who's been kind of coaching and mentoring us into this and helping our church as well. He pointed out the scriptures in the Old Testament. There's two scriptures that refer to a command from

4:36 God that every seven years they would let the land rest and so there's that pattern of sevens. We see sevens all through scripture and then of course you know God worked six days rested on the seventh and then declared that Sabbath was going to be a day it's going to be holy it's the fourth commandment out of ten and so what our revelation was is that we had been violating Sabbath for years. Sure. Not taking a Sabbath not leaning into it and basically and when I say violating what I mean is we didn't receive the gift that God was trying to get to us and that's the gift of rest and recovery and restoration but the thought of taking eight weeks off really I struggled with that until I heard another pastor say it this way he says you're not taking a sabbatical you're receiving a sabbatical. That shifted my thinking about it we're not taking eight weeks off we're receiving the gift that God's put in front of us with gratitude with humility but also what what can what does God want to say to us during this time? Right. Is there pressure on that? Well there is but the thing the thing is is you do need to take some time off so you can hear from God because we go go go we're like a what do you call that? A hamster. A hamster yes that just is going on the wheel just continually going and we hardly stop because it's not just something we do physically it's our mind. That's right. And

6:08 people you know there's needs our church has so many needs because people have needs and you feel obligated to return every text every call but there's a time when we need this they need us well we need to just unplug and rest and this is really it's really yesterday was our was it yesterday was our first really official day. Technically speaking because Monday is our Sabbath so that was kind of we always do Monday. And Tuesday was a holiday. It's my fourth which is a holiday so it really felt like yesterday was our first day to say we're engaging this. Right no work and that has been already difficult for me I'll just say so but I'm gonna get there I'm gonna get there it's just my mind you know is wondering what's going on at work you know has something happened that they need you know it's just one of those things it's just gonna happen. The analogy I heard and then actually saw like a YouTube video of a cruise ship that would that would come into port and they would every once in a while they have to raise it in order to clean the bottom of it because it's collected so much just from going and going it's just collected so much and so in order to take care of it it needs to be raised out of the water for a little bit so that they can scrub everything down and get all the barnacles yeah everything out and then it's ready to set sail again and that's I think that's a that was a good picture for me thinking about okay you know it's

7:39 one thing to take a vacation and jump right back in but you're always thinking about what's coming up or the next plan or and being in the people business wanting to shepherd people well take care of people well you know if you don't have rhythms in your normal life you're gonna be in big big trouble but especially if you don't take these moments right that are gifts as you said to be able to take off and just get out of the water a little bit so we're getting the barnacles cleaned off of our hull so to speak and that's a great metaphor one of things pastor Eddie told our team he said that if pastor Jimmy and pastor Annette had not already been practicing Sabbath I would not even have considered going there on sabbatical yeah and he said he won't he won't coach pastor because he oversees a lot of pastors yeah he says I won't coach or mentor a pastor into a sabbatical unless they're already practicing Sabbath if they're not doing that we've got to back up a step and get that as an ongoing you know ritual yeah routine in their life a rhythm in their life the micro habits so you can have macro habits exactly there you go you're so smart good he's my son he's my son brilliant well words of Kevin York he's genius genius well if everybody's a genius so we can talk more about that but I also like to revisit a little bit and that night and you know this because you've actually listened some of the podcast and we've we've told our story along the way for one one of the things this is called living up in a down world by the

9:09 way this is episode number 26 can you believe it Wow yeah I know it's crazy it's hard of going by really fast yeah so if you think about it that's literally six months that's half a year yeah 52 weeks we've done 26 here we are we're already down the road in this and loving it and we also love what we're hearing back from you and I'll share some of the some feedback a little bit later but so great to hear your comments to your emails thank you for the donations we'll share a little bit about that just to say thanks and always keep listening share with your friends that helps us get the word out that there's these two crazy people who love Jesus dramatically and and love each other and love each other even more hugely and for 30 years of wow that we've been going but we've talked about our story Chris along the way of course you're you're a massive piece of that story you're a great part of that story and so I want to share what it was like when you met Jimmy for the first time and I told you I was I was seeing him do you remember if you recall well how real are we gonna get here I remember the first time I met you too you had an emergency I had an extreme emergency so I was in seventh grade I believe and I just come away from a youth camp it might have been my first youth camp ever with Bunky yeah yeah after David Bond Claire pastor David Bonclair and went on a youth game it's a pretty big youth camp and I had

10:41 just gotten back and you I called you to come pick me up and I had my bags and everything and the thing about seventh grade Chris was Chris did not like to use the restroom outside of his own private domain and so public restrooms or no no so I had held in about movement it was a different kind of movement I would have to go to the hospital if that happened to me okay yeah I don't know how I did it but you know what you can do a lot when you're in a lot of pain when I met I was so I called and said mom I need you to pick me up somebody's got to get me and you came and Jimmy was in the car with you and you're on your way to a date and if I you can correct me but if I remember correctly y'all were gonna go to Taco Villa how funny so I remember being in the back of the car or in the back seat and I'm just like mom I gotta go you know and so I'm like oh hi whatever your name is great great to meet you and you drop me off and I the rest is history but then you thought I was but you thought I was crazy because after about a couple of weeks I'm telling you I'm gonna marry this guy what were your thoughts after just a couple of weeks I mean you could be honest it's okay you know I don't have total recall so I don't remember my exact thoughts but the higher remember the whole process and the feeling was

12:14 just like what is it what is going on this is quick no but I don't know it wasn't well I think it was fast but it wasn't like absurd necessarily I was just like oh yeah okay you're in the seventh grade I was pretty yeah we were pretty flexible and our you know we had been through a lot in that season I dated someone that was yeah cheating on me you know yeah and I warned you I told you not yes and then I did and I found out and then I'm I meet him weren't you a little Ronnie yes wow wow remember that he does remember he's 43 and still has a good memory some scars I remember I just didn't like memory yeah I did not like that guy something about it didn't you think the same thing could happen with Jimmy or did you automatically think no this seems like a good guy I didn't have the same vibes with Jimmy right away but most of the vibes I was feeling was your feeling I get me home now exactly so but I'll talk to him later but to be honest after that especially because of seeing that experience with that other guy I like Jimmy much better and I remember even telling Lisa like yeah this is a great guy and I would watch him take care of you yeah you saw and I'd never seen a man hold your door hold your hand like there was a genuine care

13:45 and love and sensitivity and you know growing up with you as my mom with my dad before y'all divorced there's there was never it was very there was no respect yeah it was it was not not good and so there wasn't respect and and so to me that alone was like no this this is great and you know and you walked me down the aisle I did I gave you a was cool that was amazing was it was yeah little suit on yeah I always joke about it because my voice hasn't changed to what it is now and so you were short and now you're taller who gives this bride away her sister and I you know yeah that wedding was so that wedding was amazing because if you remember all the all the kids from Buckner Children's Home where I was working at the time they brought the whole campus to the wedding yeah and that was so special to this day I'll go through some of those pictures and just tears me up in a good way where are you seeing the pictures we have them in a in a in a bin a plastic bin okay it's been a lot while I haven't seen them okay but I would look at through those pictures and see these it's amazing and just and I also have some on my I took pictures of pictures have them oh right so that you could have them on your computer yeah and so when I'm going through the old pictures but it was so special because you gave me away no he gave me away you're right you gave her away nobody gave me I just stepped in

15:17 but I also I recognized how weird this must be for y'all too I mean I'm not I mean I had a good upbringing a great parents I had a good situation I just happened to go through a divorce so I wasn't I didn't have a lot of the trauma issues that were going on in the family and I knew I was stepping into a family that sure it was real clear and yet God gave me such a piece I mean I can't even explain how I just knew I knew here you were my rescuer and you showed me what a true man how a true man is supposed to treat a woman I appreciate my kids saw that yeah but don't think I saw you as a project no I know you never did I knew God was in it exactly felt God was in it and so I went with it yes yes yeah worked out pretty good 30 years later 30 years of Wow and then Chris start follows in Jimmy's footsteps yeah I mean even back then though I remember I wasn't I was kind of out of church in and out you know since the divorce and my dad wasn't really going and I'd stay with him some and you were going so I'd go with you every once in a while but and then I remember going to that youth ministry that you were part-time with I think at the time and and kind of seeing you and your element and that that passion and and you know I'd been around other I have other ministers and stuff in my family and been around some of that but I think Jimmy was the first like genuine yes I think like this guy

16:51 actually really loves God and believes this stuff and that yeah that changed the trajectory of all of our lives you sure did I'll remember our journey together because we knew we were we jumped into a blender together and just hit you know maximum power you know and here we are and this trying to figure it out you know and two as we've all grown older we've read a lot we've studied a lot and talked about family dynamics and systems family systems and and to with all of us being in ministry that's what's really interesting about our family is that God took this really broken group of people and said oh I'm gonna use you to show my glory because no different from the people in the Bible exactly no perfect people allowed right exactly and so we I think that I think our tenacity to not let go of the call of God on all of our lives through the dysfunction through the brokenness through the ongoing life drama has you know the scripture in Jude 1 says this it says that we are called we are loved and we are kept by Jesus Christ called loved and kept and I think that his call on our life his love of us for us with us and also he's kept us he's protected us and I looked I did a little study on that word kept and it doesn't only mean keeping the predators from the outside but it also is that he has kept us from the inside we he's kept us he doesn't he doesn't want to let us go he won't let

18:23 us run out from under that that beyond that fence of grace so to speak and so that is really marked our lives and continues to so proud of you I've said that so many times that I don't ever want it to sound rote or anything but I really mean that because I've watched your journey as well your faith journey and I remember we were it was in Southern California when things really begin to take shape for you and you begin to own your own faith you weren't coasting on us or a former youth ministers or or anyone else you begin to own that can you tell us a little bit about that part of your journey yeah I mean I had moved with you guys out to Southern California Appa Valley California took you six months to come with us because you wanted to stay back because you had a girl girl yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah God delivered but ended up yeah ended up with you guys and I well the hardest part I moved in in the summer so it's like June and so I didn't know anybody but thankfully you know we are in the youth group so you know especially at that age the social aspect right your identity as a young person teenager but you know I had always been a good kid but I I wouldn't I didn't say I really knew God it's kind of like you hear you know stories about God your whole life and but I never had a real relationship with the Lord and then got there and started going to church regularly which you know just shows you the value of community yes you know

19:57 scripture says that bad company corrupts good morals so what is good company do right so you get around the positive area and it just starts to change how you think how you feel a part of something a lot of people say you know a lot of times we need to belong before we believe and I felt like I started finding a belonging a little bit and and and then it was interesting because I thought I was believing well but I still it was I don't know how to put it was still like like you believe I believe the earth is round and if some people might not but I believe that the earth is round but that doesn't affect my life mm-hmm it doesn't mean anything exactly I don't believe the moon is cheese okay great so I believe and it reflects off the Sun but that I don't know what that means to me personally and so going through the personal relationship with Jesus the catalyst for me was actually this one to my right and my mother we were driving to youth in our truck and we're saying a lot of great things there are a lot of hard things too we don't want to paint a picture like it was all the other ways to get yeah just ugly so what we want to make sure we're staying real yeah yeah because there's a lot of reality of the hard things and the yelling or the frustration when you know you got a new stepdad and you're like who do you think you are you know my dad and step kid and I'm like who do you think yeah I'm not your dad yeah there was never a big rebellion but there was

21:28 always that tension just like any any relationship there's conflict if you don't have conflict you're not really trying it's the truth there's no relationship exactly so so we've had plenty of that but this moment was a conflicting moment for me I'm driving on my way to youth and I'm gonna be drumming for the the little youth band and and you looked at me and you said do you when are you gonna really have a relationship with Jesus and you kind of called me out but it wasn't in like a what's wrong with you you know wouldn't condescending no it was just like I I see how you act and I see like you feel apart but it was it was kind of a crossroads moment like are you are you really gonna go after God and not just after his stuff or his gifts or the abilities to be able to play drums and show people your muscles and you know and I was offended they really offended me and but it was one of the best offenses right because it was a truth in it and I had to look inside yeah and you know in our culture we're so afraid to offend everybody and there's there's the right way to do things there's a right way to talk to people there's a right way as one of my favorite Proverbs it says he who blesses his neighbor early in the morning his neighbor will consider it a curse I love that because he's trying to say the right thing but he did it in the wrong time in and in the wrong way he shouted early in the morning and so there's a

22:58 time to speak the right thing to people and fortunately that was a good time because after that I just remember being frustrated like I do know God then you know but I didn't realize where I was and so for me I ended up really I remember that even that night just thinking about like do I really know God and then started diving to my word and and honestly between that between the example that was being said the church community I started getting in the scripture myself and it just started penetrating my heart and it might have been one of the first time I really felt it's crazy both the conviction of God like my need for a Savior something that's on me and the love of God at the same time Wow that's that's what scripture says he brings not just grace but truth he brings both full of grace and truth and so I felt like before I could rationalize and justify well at least I'm not Hitler like my dad yeah you were really not like mine you know this bully and you could always rationalize and compare yourself to other people and it was the first time I just looked in and like who am I comparing myself to and when I started reading scripture and looking in the Gospels I'm supposed to be like Jesus and then and then the conviction I'll never be that way but that's where I love what Timothy Keller has brought to us he always says that you are far more loved than you could

24:30 ever dream and yet far more sinful than you could ever imagine at the same time and the more you actually realize both are true then you realize wow even though I'm that way God has chosen to love me yeah that creates just a love not to get something from God but for God right and your gratitude just explodes off the charts because I heard Pete Greg say he's heads up 24-7 prayer in in UK and he said that someone made a comment on a podcast to him that I was listening to recently and he they said I just wish I was so holy like you are I mean you're so immersed and he said whoa whoa whoa he said he said first of all he said the longer I'm in this the more unholy I feel mm-hmm the more true more the more I realize how unlike him I am he said I don't live under condemnation at all right because we need to realize where we are not in a way to put us down or to to oppress or you know guilt or shame us humble but to walk in humility he was going with that is to be humble and not ever compare ourselves with other people and say well at least I'm not doing that or I do this more than them I think one of the things that might have been almost an enemy in a sense or maybe a hindrance to your your growth track early on was that you were that good kid you did things right you didn't get in trouble you were you were

26:03 not aggressive you were passively aggressive you weren't sure aggressive sarcastically exactly so all of that so you know we couldn't point to you and go Chris man you really well no you didn't really mess up well Chrissy no you didn't we didn't at least we didn't know when you messed up because you didn't wait yeah it went outward well well and that's the thing about the covert like the good kid you know the bad kid decides I'm gonna be bad just you know to be back so I don't get what I want the good kid learns I can be good in order to get what I want same so it's still very well but they're still can have real pitfalls to them yeah and I think sometimes good can be the enemy of great we've heard that a million times through our life and so I think it just took a point where you begin to see that if I'm called to be like Jesus I may be better than this guy or whatever how you're comparing but I can't I'm not that and then that's that awareness comes over yeah well and one of the things I noticed about you after you really committed to the Lord was your you were a voracious reader of the word and definitely I remember we had a gentleman come to our church Greg Berson and he he prophesied over you and he said I see a sword in his mouth and if you know what a sword is the sword in in Ephesians is the Word of God and he said it's just coming out and I'm thinking yes because it's going in yeah and we saw a huge change in you immediately we knew there was a call of God on your heart on your life just

27:38 immediately there was God was gonna use you in such a mighty way and he and he has so when did you recognize the call of God to go into ministry yeah I've had people ask me that before I feel like you know what I was little little mm-hmm I know I wanted to be a pastor for whatever reason I mean my uncle was a pastor and I'd see him and I think I wanted that and I remember your your grandmother on your dad's side buying you a suit and you would I remember it's a blue velvet suit with a white little shirt and you would walk around and but you would walk around and say I'm gonna be a preacher I'm gonna be a preacher and you were probably two or three years old yeah yeah so but the actual you know call I like to say the call comes in two forms and you need both you think about a foundation the scripture says that our foundation is built upon the the apostles and prophets with Jesus being the chief cornerstone you need to hear a word from the Lord from Jesus telling you you are but that's not enough either I don't think because you also need the rest of the foundation of the church you need people recognizing your gifts and if you have one without the other something's wrong you say God called me but people around you're going you're or you're not ready maybe you are but you there's some character because you know you could start helping people right away as a Christian you don't have to be this tall to ride this ride you need to start loving people but there's

29:10 a difference between loving people and shepherding people and so that call came not only through feelings of sensing something from the Lord and the Lord speaking to me and that desire like who wants to do ministry it's that's a crazy desire so so that idea but then it being encouraged and seen from other people people recognizing that on your life yeah and having both and I think both takes humility I was probably about 17 18 when I started feeling that since that and then going to college to start kind of testing now what does that mean what does ministry mean there's a lot of different it's like saying I want to be a doctor well which which area do you want to go into which field and so there's a lot there's a lot to explore but it's just you know doing doing the next right thing and it's just taking that that's why I love scripture like the lamp to my feet God is a lamp to my feet right now being down the street that's my little preacher colloquialism right so it's a lamp not the halogen right and so we just got to do the do the next step yeah so yeah and then obviously once you got out of school you immediately started as a youth pastor for us right worship and youth and then college you've kind of did several different ministry areas yeah in college we were we y'all planted that church in Brownwood yeah and so just helping out really doing whatever me me and my

30:41 girlfriend at the time he's my wife now of coming up on 23 years she we would clean the church is our church our students would come around clean the church and we would do worship kids I mean just whatever that's when you know you love the church when you're just whatever yeah just here clean toilets you know you're you love the church if you're gonna clean toilets for sure oh you all did it all we did everyone of us wore hats and yeah it was a beautiful time though looking back on it you know we made a lot of mistakes so those rookie mistakes and yet there was a purity in it all I mean even the mistakes were not committed out of malignancy or anything you know anything malevolent in turn those terms it was always you know overzealous usually overshooting the runways typically right mistakes that we made out of out of passion and out of man just think back even I so remember the music from each of those eras you know from the California you know Cadman's call jars of clay and all that and then with the Brownwood world the music would then was more like the passion movement got really big and worship really began to come on strong during that time and you taught late 90s Chris how to play the guitar at a young age and you're an amazing guitar player and a drummer really he could do anything in the church and we knew that he could lead worship he could be a youth pastor he could lead college and then eventually pastor which is what you're doing now and it's just it's amazing what I mean we always said

32:11 because Jimmy can do all those things too that we could we have our own church I mean we built in church built in church plan church in the box yeah family yes and to even this day now faith is on our staff our youngest she's on our staff as our digital creator and her husband is on our staff part-time cameras camera work I said hey if you're gonna marry my daughter you gotta join the family you're married into the passage yeah your kids are following down that path yeah yeah that's right Addison's at Abilene Christian University studying for ministry and is doing ministry at camp your wife Casey is preaching this week both to middle school and high school oh man boy that brings back I get a little trauma-informed response and I know for you you never like you have to do this or there was never an expectation to follow in my steps sometimes parents put those expectations because we try to live vicariously through our kids and we want what's best for them but also we're trying to you know recreate our past and through them a lot of times and sometimes it's good motives sometimes it's not but y'all never pressured that so it was a call from the Lord the church and you guys help be instruments to that and the same thing for my kids like I'm trying to talk my son out of it not in a bad way if I can talk you out of it now that's right it's gonna get hard you're gonna be tested it's not easy yeah and I don't say ministry is harder than any other

33:43 job you know people that I don't like it's just different that's right just different lane and so but but that's like every job right you know everybody I know a lot of parents doing youth ministry they have the expectation for their kids and I want you to be this and be this be this and scripture says train your child on the way that they should go so we're looking at what God has done in them and helping launch so into their area and so yeah to me if a child sees everything that the parents go through over time in the ministry the hurt the betrayal all and they still want to be in ministry you know it's a god thing because you've seen the good bad and the ugly sure and all we ever did in your case Chris was watch your life begin to watch the fruit is boy you really your senior year just exploded in your faith life you started that Bible study at our house with a bunch of kids a bunch of young people from school and things we were doing at school as well and just watched all that and we did not ever you know choose that for you we just simply affirmed what we saw God doing right that's really confirmation and affirmation together a really powerful in person's life but it wasn't just us it was others it was a Greg Berson coming all the way from Auckland New Zealand to say hey it's all over you know you've got something on you so we've watched God take you on that journey and like I said I would never I would never wish anything upon someone that they're not called and prepared for because who God calls he equips right right right points he anoints and but who he doesn't he doesn't

35:15 so it could be dangerous everybody's called to pastor there are people called to to to be Jesus in their workplace we've got a heavy businessmen and women who love the Lord and our example so yeah we just happen to be called to a church yeah we had to navigate some tricky waters early on though I mean the first year just to back up a little bit because I don't want this to be like pie in the sky moment sure you know rainbows and unicorns and pixie dust so that first year was really difficult for all of us because when we first got married we first got married because here we you and I both were still coming off of our own traumas we were still just reeling from everything that was happening then you know your dad your ex lived a few doors down in the same apartment complex do you remember that not at first but yes he later moved to the same one that was that was interesting so would be make it easier for y'all to come home from school and be able to go to each of our homes I think that was the idea I don't know you might know something different no I do is it's brilliant but but but when you're a teenager you're going to take advantage of the parent of course and you're gonna they're using you and you're using them and it was yeah it was it was very very interesting first year is rough I just remember a lot of dinners when you or Alicia would bring up I remember Christmas four years ago and we all went and I'm sitting over there going no I don't actually you know and did you put

36:45 it out of your mind because it was so bad there were those no there were those dynamic no no no no it wasn't that like that but I can imagine people that are listening today who have gone through their own breakups their own divorces their own pain or maybe they had a stepdad who was a jerk dangerous right abusive and so if you're listening I mean we only tell our story and show our scars in the hopes that it will help others find life and find hope and grace and so and know this I'll never forget so right after I went through my divorce I had been part of a group been invited to do a children's camp lead the music for it the worship for it and I knew all the kids songs you know I've got a river of life flowing out of me all those I knew all those songs and I'd done that for like six or seven years and then they called me to come back and I had to say and in shame I said I don't think I can do it now I went through a divorce they're like well do you have June something something open us yeah and they said well come on can you get loose up yeah I can be there so I ended up going and doing that camp and honestly I think that camp was probably more explosive than any that I've done well we had you know several hundred kids it was a big deal out at Lake Brownwood Baptist Encampment there and a lady walked up to me and she's she just stood in front of me and she said I understand that you've gone through a divorce course the shame just just here in the word come out of somebody because you're a pastor and I'm up there leading

38:19 worship feeling so unworthy and broken and she said well let me tell you something and she told me about her going through a divorce 20 30 years ago and she said I want you to know there's life after divorce and then she said God wants you to know there's life after divorce and she just it's like I got permission to live again just from those words yeah and that really was a catalyst for healing for me yeah because I was living in shame I thought I can never minister I could never how can I tell anybody how to live well I've learned we don't tell people we point people to Jesus and he tells them how to live we don't I've learned it but I didn't know it then I was young sure and and I just want that to be a message to anyone listening today that there's life after trauma there's life after pain it's not over and Chris had Chris and Alicia both had their own pain absolutely of us going through a divorce of course prior to the divorce the way we lived y'all were in pain perpetually yeah there's a lot of just this hard and dysfunctional yeah yeah tough times yeah and you know blending families is a whole thing and so there's listeners that have that situation that's hard yeah and so again even when you're hearing a lot of the great things and the respect and honor a lot of that was built trust was built and sometimes it's two steps forward one step back between all of us and so there are a lot of a lot of times where it you know it didn't happen overnight so if

39:49 anybody is in a blended family or or has that recall in their life you know that the level of grace that is needed for everybody involved and just patience love is patient and yeah and so it just it yeah it took time but but God and his grace you know really really did the work in the end but but we just stayed I like the idea the potter's wheel you just the goal he wear the clay we just stay just stay on the wheel stay on the wheel that's all your job is stay on the wheel and he will craft and we try to jump off so quick and do our own thing surely yeah so you know that's good that's good that's rich I think about how things could have gone a lot of different ways when you look back over your life I think we all do that and we'll reflect and think that decision hadn't been made there then this wouldn't have and I see the connectivity thank you dr. Wallace Roark yeah I see the connectivity of everything in this life how it's hard to have a regret over something when you see where you are now yeah I mean a legitimate painful regret I'm not to say we don't think wish we'd done something different not even saying that but to live with that regret where it becomes you know a pain point in your life but had you not have gone through that or had you not have made that decision you wouldn't be where you are and you wouldn't be surrounded by the community you have now because you wouldn't be here you'd be somewhere else and so when I think back about that I

41:23 think about how God orders our steps yes I'm 37 sure does 23 in delights in every detail of our lives details of our lives it's a new living translation version of that and that's exactly what he does and for you listening I mean you're hearing pieces of our story here and we want to encourage you we would all sit here today and tell you life is not perfect still it's just not in fact all of us have kind of figured this little keynote out it won't be on this side right now I mean we're being perfected but we're not perfect right God is continuing to heal all of us as we grow we're all wounded healers at the end of the day live in a fallen world but we have hope because of who Christ is and what he's done for us absolutely in our life and that's the difference you know in a marriage that lasts is because the two people involved the husband and the wife in the marriage have hope in Christ and they're living for Christ if you have one that is and one that isn't it's it's really difficult but when you have two people who love the Lord more than they love each other boy you've got a recipe for a great great marriage and yet not without bumps and bruises and not without bumps and bruises for sure well Chris who as we're gonna close this section out and I'd like for you to just say something to our listeners I mean you just just share your heart with them we've got people here who grew up in

42:53 church but they're not there anymore for whatever reason life has happened they there's a breach in that relationship got people who love Jesus at an early point in life and now they don't even know if he exists anymore you know so would you just speak a brief word into that and then I'll land the plane on some shout-outs yeah I think I would just you know encourage anyone that's struggled with your faith first of all everyone struggles with their faith at some point process of belief yeah everyone and you and you should because anything worth having you have to struggle for right we become entitled a lot easily that's that entitlement spirit comes when we just handed things and we take advantage of them so you're at a good place it's not a bad thing to have some struggle and have some doubt at the end of the day the encouragement is there are people on the other side of your pain that have not only gone through that pain but also are authentically following God following Christ trying to do the right thing as much as it's easy just to see the people that have it or the people that have failed you whether it's a parental figure a sister or brother a church member you know that's going to happen and like you said on the other side I don't need I don't even know what perfection looks like on the other side because Genesis doesn't say God made the world perfect he made it good but there's no perfection necessarily otherwise there wouldn't have to be toil

44:26 and work and so God wants us to do that work but when we do it with him it's a labor of love and so coming to a place to recognize that God is good and trusting in him is really hard when you've been burnt and hurt but at the end of the day that's some of the best thing that tests your faith because at the end of the day it's about who he is and if you build your life on what other people have done good or bad at the end of the day it's not going to serve the purpose very well for you because if they're down you're down if they're up you're up that's not a very strong faith and so I think for me that's what I've learned you see people that people that have fallen or done something wrong and then have this crisis of faith because of that and the question is is your faith in that person mm-hmm I like what Tim Keller says if a big pastor or somebody has fallen I say what does that have to do with the resurrection of Jesus Wow is that not true anymore and that's a very spiritual religious answer a question but that is what we base our faith on who is Jesus what has he done and is he dependable yes is he loving yes did that person fall who said they followed him yes but that doesn't have as much to do with me and I want my faith to be built on him wow that's great see I'm so proud to have two amazing godly men in my life it's just you have no idea as a mom what what it feels like to have you here talking to our listeners and with with Jimmy and

46:01 as iron sharpens iron I could do this all day long every day but Chris you have to move here so sorry you know well it makes a better podcast when we're all three together I'm telling you it's beautiful thanks for being with us today I want to give some shoutouts before we go so just hang on just a minute first of all want to always encourage our listeners to listen to Adam and Tina Curry they have a wonderful podcast you know Adam has a podcast called no agenda with John Dvorak and they it's a big deal I mean they they deconstruct media they they try to bring truth where there's been lies and misinformation and that's just a huge whole big thing but that but Adam also wanted to do a podcast with his wife to say hey there's another side to me I'm there's a human side to me there's a guy I'm a dude I'm a husband and I'm learning and we're on a faith journey together and so currying the keeper is a podcast where they they talk about their faith journey and we're so privileged in it and I have a 50-yard line seat on that journey and to get to walk with me here today if it weren't for them that's true I mean we get to walk with them and do life with them we're still gonna do a crossover podcast with them they're getting everything lined out in their weekly show because they were doing every other week but now they're doing a weekly show so now if they found their legs on that that's gonna be coming and it'll be a live show so it'll be live not it'll be a recorded no editing so it's gonna be fun looking forward to it but we always want to just say hey if you're listening our show and you've not given currying the keeper a shot give

47:34 them a shot they're on all platforms we always encourage you listen on fountain where you can earn satoshis while you're listening and that'll be a blessing not only to you but it'll be a blessing to you because you can bless that forward to the whoever you're listening to through boosts and boostograms speaking of those I want to say a big thanks to all of you who've been boosting us and sending us boostograms but also those of you that have jumped on and have been blessing us through PayPal just a couple new donors this week Eric thank you so much what a blessing to hear from you Trinity also want to say thank you for your donation I also want to read kind of a follow-up that we mentioned Megan last week and that she was having some struggles and she actually asked us to talk on the show about family dynamics family systems especially when they break down and some unforgiveness and some tension and family so she wrote a response to our show just want to share it with you and I've edited this Megan's don't panic if you're listening hi thank you so much for the episode today it was so needed so today could not have been more perfect timing for the show I love the quote giving up the right to be offended part wow that is so complex and challenging thank you for being real and for reminding me of your compassion you share for your father and that path it took you to get there and then given my profession I can only imagine how challenging that must have been I love these episodes and look forward to listening each Tuesday thank you again blessings to y'all on the sabbatical as she writes yes I am from Texas and so we're so thankful to have you as a part and we have so many amazing amazing

49:07 listeners that are blessing us Sir by his grace absurdient I love sushi one of my favorite names for our handle RGB TC again Sir by his grace we are so thankful Adam Adam 1999 who could that be and so Adam the pod father curry and then sir Brian with a with an eye and sometimes he puts wine instead of I in there some of the wine as in WH I NE heard from you lately sir Brian loved to hear back from you that's our show today and that thank you so much for jumping on this oh you want me to push the button well you're just sitting there who's the producer here oh my goodness you're the talent oh is that right yeah right is this a good time right now Chris you can chime in now well I'm not gonna intervene we need intervention Chris thanks for being yes thank you so much what a fun show energy but a lot of wisdom brother yeah always been wise beyond the years well not really when you're 13 awesome but anyway yeah so proud of you and we love you thanks for being with the state you all we love you we're out

50:44 you you