"Blame, Name, Frame, and Maim... What Do You Do When Betrayed?"

WEBVTT

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This is Jimmy and Annette, and we are living

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up in a down world. We're so glad that you've

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joined us today. And it's a little bit different.

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This will be, shock and awe, this will be Annette,

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Dame Annette, as Adam Curry calls you. This will

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be Annette's first time to do a video podcast.

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So I'm going to welcome you to Conversations

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today. Thank you. I was a little reluctant. Why

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were you reluctant? Well, I'm just not, I'm a

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little camera shy. Because you're a girl. A little

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camera shy, and I'm a girl. Do you remember that

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time we had to do a, we were doing a commercial

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type thing for a church in the Dallas -Fort Worth

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area? And every time the camera came on, you

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just went total blank. I couldn't do it. I mean,

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like, freeze. And I'd say, just say something.

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You're good at this. You're on camera every week.

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I talk for a living. I'm a professional Christian

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and I talk for a living. Professional Christian.

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You know what I mean? I'm a pastor, so it's what

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I do. So it's a little easier for me to roll

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with it. I'm glad you're on. Where have you been?

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I've missed you. We've missed you. You've been

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a little busy with all of your interviews, which

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have been wonderful, by the way. Thank you. They

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have been. Thank you. And I'm excited that you're

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going that direction. I love doing it. Yes. Because

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I love hearing, I love stories. It's the power

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of story. And so the whole idea behind conversation,

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living up and down world conversations, is the

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power of story. It's letting people tell their

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stories. And I've had some really unique, interesting

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people on. We've got more lined out that are

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going to be amazing. And so be watching for those.

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My new favorite one that you have lined out,

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he's actually coming soon. We just need to get

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it on the schedule, is Dr. Kiltz. Oh, Robert

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Kiltz. I love that man. Dr. Robert Kiltz. He's

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a fertility doctor in the carnivore world. He's

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actually been carnivore for what? 16 years. 15,

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16 years. But what I love about him, let's just

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even take carnivore out. Right, exactly. He's

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just a joyous man. He is writing a book called

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Christ in Carnivore. But he's just so joyful,

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so positive. And I'm really excited to be a part

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of that podcast, whether I'm in the back. in

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the directing or if I'm here with him. We were

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on his podcast and now he literally is going

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to fly out here and be on our podcast. I'm really

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excited about it. Yeah, that was cool. We talked

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to him. We saw him in Tennessee. We went to Yuma,

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Tennessee and did this carnivore. We spoke again

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at one of the meetups for Healing Humanity, Perfect

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Human Diet movie, documentary. Movie and series.

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Yeah, and it's going to be a weekly series as

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well. They're going to do a whole series of things.

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Anyway, that's all happening. And they're starting

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the hard editing right now as they're wrapping

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up the last of the shooting. So that's going

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to be great. So we got to see Dr. Kiltz. And

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he actually offered. He offered to fly out here.

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Fly out here. He's got his own plane. So he's

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going to fly out here. And he said, I'd rather

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sit down in the studio with you guys like we

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did up in Austin. Everybody's pretty impressed

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with our studio. Because it's really nice. You

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did a phenomenal job designing it. Thank you.

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And Faith, who's behind camera, has done a phenomenal

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job getting things set up. But it was supposed

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to be kind of office studio. Now it's all studio.

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It's a studio. Can't really work in here. Well,

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I can work in here. All I need is a laptop. I

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mean, that's it in my Bible. I'm good to go.

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It's a little bit more cluttered than I can work

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in. Faith and you are perfect for this. It's

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a working studio now. Before it was a pretty

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studio. Now it's a working studio because we've

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added the cameras. So I'll be glad when I have

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my own private office, which hopefully will start

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soon. So what have you been up to? I mean, you

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got behind instead of being. In front of the

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camera, you just realize, gosh, I think I need

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to sit behind the camera on these conversations

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to help direct a little bit. Yeah, I'm interested

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in doing that. It also involves me in the conversation

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because I get to hear what you are talking about.

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I may have to interject every now and then because

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you know how I am. Are you going to need a microphone

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like over there? I might. At church, I've begged

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you to give me a microphone so that when you

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say something that's a little off, I can say

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something. interrupt the whole service. So I

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do that a lot. You know, I just do it with my

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voice, not with the microphone. So I might need

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to do that. You might need to consider doing

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that. Somebody's got to keep you straight. So

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we've been doing a lot of speaking, been doing

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two carnivore meetups. That's been fantastic.

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I mean, and here's what I love about that space

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is that we get to bring Jesus into a place where

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you don't classically think of about. Church,

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Jesus, spirituality. And yet the mind, body,

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spirit connection is so critical to having whole

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health, holistic health. I mean, not just having.

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What good is it if you get your body and your

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diet and shape and all that and you're eating

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well, but your mind's a wreck or you have mental

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health issues or spiritually you're void. And

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so we've got to get all three of those components

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integrated. That's really the mark of maturity,

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isn't it? When you begin to integrate mind, body,

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spirit, and you become that whole person. And

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isn't that the goal of life on this planet is

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to become a whole person? It's always been our

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goal since we met. The Bible calls that maturity.

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And it literally is. It's the integration of

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a lot of things. My word for the year, I've said

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this before, but it's important, is the word

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convergence. And that's how I see that is convergence

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is the coming together of all these different

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things. And I'm seeing that happen on a lot of

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levels right now, which is very exciting. So

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we're going to have guests that have a carnivore

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story, but we're also going to have guests that

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have trauma. in their life that they've been

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able to overcome because of Jesus. And I love

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that. We're going to kind of have a little bit

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of everything on our show. In fact, I'm going

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to have a very interesting guest, Pastor Benjamin,

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Leon Benjamin. He is part of the White House

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Office of Faith who meets with Donald Trump on

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a weekly basis to pray in the Oval Office for

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him to cover Donald Trump and President Trump

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and his cabinet, but also to pray for our nation.

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And his words, the Holy Spirit is back in the

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Oval Office. I love that. Get to have him on.

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He's not going to fly. I think we're going to

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do remote unless we get him back out to be with

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Laura Logan. With Laura Logan living here in

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Fredericksburg, we've talked about tag teaming

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some guests. So we may end up doing something

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like that. She has a very cool, very impressive

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podcast that Luke Coffey is producing called

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Going Rogue with Laura Logan or Laura Logan Going

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Rogue. One of those. But it's so good. Check

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that out. Yeah, it's good. And our friends continue

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to roll. Adam and Tina Curry, Curry and the Keeper.

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They've actually had some misses lately because

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they've had a crazy busy schedule. They've been

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busy, been out of town quite a bit. Oh my gosh,

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no kidding. So we're all kind of running and

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gunning. We are. That's how it feels. Are you

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tired? I'm good. I'm good. I'm excited because

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I actually do better when my back's against the

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wall a little bit. I tend to perform better under

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a little pressure. And so actually I kind of

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like the craziness. And we've got so many trips

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planned over the next. few months that we're

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always on the go. So we're going up to Seattle

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and we're going to be a part of the Healing Humanity

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documentary meetup up there in Seattle. So I'm

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excited. We'll get to speak there, share our

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story, meet a lot of amazing people who are on

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the journey of mind, body, and spirit. So we

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just locked that in last night. Yeah, we did.

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So I'm super excited. Ashley Rogers. Hooked us

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up with that. He's coordinating it with his brother.

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They're called the Carnivore Brothers. They have

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a great podcast, by the way, the Carnivore Brothers.

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And they have a good product. That beef jerky

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they make is the best I've ever tasted. I didn't

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know they made it. Yeah, they make it. That's

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their product. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah.

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That was amazing. So, yeah, we got an inside

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track on some good stuff. It wasn't hard. It

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was really good. Not so dried out that it hurt

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your mouth, right? So anyway, yeah. So we're

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continuing on the journey, doing well with that.

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What else is going on? Oh, Easter. We just had

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Easter weekend. We had a great Easter services.

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We had three services, had almost 1 ,200 people

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attend, which is the largest we've ever had in

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this church. And so the best part, we had 16.

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People accept Christ, which is wonderful. That's

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the whole goal. It's beautiful. If one person

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accepted Christ, it's worth all the effort and

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work that was put into three services and all

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the volunteers you have to have to conduct three

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services. It was beautiful. It was a beautiful

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time. What was the topic? What did I talk on?

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Oh, my goodness. Typical Easter message, right?

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It was quite impressive that you were able to

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get through it. But you talked about... Betrayal.

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Betrayal. This is B word. Edit that part. I literally

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lost it. We don't do edits. I literally just

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kind of lost it for a second. Well, I called

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it Breakthrough After Betrayal. Yes, and it was

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the first time you've shared our story. You didn't

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really share a whole lot because you're trying

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to protect the names. I didn't get into the weeds

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and protecting the innocent and or guilty. told

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three story two or three stories of betrayal

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because it's happened more than once to everybody

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everybody there is not a human on the planet

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that has not experienced someone turning their

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back and that's what betrayal is it's a turning

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away and it can happen in a million different

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ways typically it's someone that you're close

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to betrayal Betrayal doesn't happen to some rogue

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guy who's following me on Facebook and makes

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a bad comment. That's not betrayal. I don't know

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that guy. Betrayal is when you've done life.

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You've been in people's life intimately. Close.

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Yeah. So that was a really good message because

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Jesus, he experienced the ultimate betrayal.

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Totally understands our pain when we go through

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it. He's the one who helps us through that pain.

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And so I felt like that was a great sermon for

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Easter. And I felt like the Lord led us down

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that path because we were listening to a dear,

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dear friend of ours, Pastor Steve Berger in Tennessee,

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Nashville area. He went through a really horrific

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betrayal in his church, which was our church,

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but we had already moved here. So we'd been here

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several years. But we still considered that our

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home base. And when we would visit Nashville

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and go see our kids, we'd go back to our church.

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And now it doesn't exist. We can't. I know. So

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it's heartbreaking for us. I mean, it's still

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heartbreaking for us. That betrayal had so many

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ripple effects because of the scope of it. And

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he shared his story for the first time on Rita

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Springer's. So if you get a chance, go watch

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this. It's Rita Springer and Steve Berger. So

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it's easy to find. You can find it on YouTube.

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Super easy. Just look up Rita Springer and Steve

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Berger. It's B -E -R -G -E -R. And listen to

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him share his story of betrayal as a pastor who

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got burned by his own staff. And he was the founding

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pastor. Founding pastor. This wasn't just...

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Someone who's just been a pastor for a few years.

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He was the founding pastor of this church. And

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he was in the middle of a transition, transitioning

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to become the pastor emeritus. Yes, become the

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pastor emeritus. And he was raising up a younger

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pastor. Brutal. Brutal. Just brutal. I feel his

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pain. The betrayal. I really feel his pain. Well,

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we can relate because being in ministry, you

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know, it kind of comes part of the... hazard

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it's part of the job hazard the hazard of the

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job is that those kinds of things are going to

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happen because as pastors by nature we tend to

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be very trusting and so we kind of give our heart

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away and we're very transparent we're just wired

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that way so we give our heart away to people

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and then when it gets trampled on or turned away

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it it's it's a deep wound but i will say this

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i feel like through the years we've gone through

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this several times several deep ones, but there

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are a lot of little ones, but much deeper. And

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every time we've gone through it, our recovery

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time has been exponentially quicker. Yeah, it

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has. It's like we bounce back. And I think too,

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as we've been in this for now, for me, it's been

00:13:09.740 --> 00:13:14.500
40 years, 40 plus years, 42 years. And for you.

00:13:15.340 --> 00:13:20.820
32. Ish. Yeah. 32 years. What happens is the

00:13:20.820 --> 00:13:23.779
older you get, the longer you're in this, your

00:13:23.779 --> 00:13:27.860
focus becomes more on Jesus and the kingdom of

00:13:27.860 --> 00:13:31.919
God than it does people in the church. And I

00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:33.820
don't mean that in a disparaging way at all.

00:13:33.899 --> 00:13:38.240
It's just our focus has shifted to a much, it's

00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:40.559
almost like a higher altitude. It's like a 30

00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:43.840
,000 foot level as opposed to. Just constantly

00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:46.279
being down there with your feelings out and everything.

00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:48.740
We're still that. We're still very trusting.

00:13:48.740 --> 00:13:51.100
And to me, that's what makes our church what

00:13:51.100 --> 00:13:54.480
it is. I think in the last few years, we've had

00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:57.799
to allow ourself to become more trusting. If

00:13:57.799 --> 00:14:01.059
not, we can't be the pastors God's called us

00:14:01.059 --> 00:14:03.919
to be. Because you have to, in order to be a

00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:06.379
good pastor, you really need to have some transparency.

00:14:06.539 --> 00:14:08.960
You need to be able to help people understand

00:14:08.960 --> 00:14:12.360
that. Their pain, you understand their pain because

00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:14.539
you've been through pain yourself. And if you

00:14:14.539 --> 00:14:19.220
keep that all to yourself and you act as if you've

00:14:19.220 --> 00:14:22.700
never experienced anything, it's hard for people

00:14:22.700 --> 00:14:25.940
to relate to you. That reminds me. It does, of

00:14:25.940 --> 00:14:28.580
a pastor that we've had. That we've had who will

00:14:28.580 --> 00:14:31.679
go unnamed. But that guy would get up and preach

00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:35.200
a solid hour every time he preached. And he was

00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:38.009
brilliant. And opening the Bible and getting

00:14:38.009 --> 00:14:40.870
in the word and teaching. But he never talked

00:14:40.870 --> 00:14:43.350
about his personal life. Never shared his own

00:14:43.350 --> 00:14:45.669
stories. And you have to think about it. The

00:14:45.669 --> 00:14:49.309
whole idea of the Bible, it's a story. It has

00:14:49.309 --> 00:14:54.070
a story arc. And story is what makes us who we

00:14:54.070 --> 00:14:57.769
are. Our stories are what's compelling. For example,

00:14:57.769 --> 00:15:01.490
if I'm listening to a preacher. I love I'm nerdy.

00:15:01.490 --> 00:15:03.929
So I get into the scripture and the Hebrew, the

00:15:03.929 --> 00:15:06.149
Aramaic and the Greek and all the different nuances

00:15:06.149 --> 00:15:09.169
of Bible. But at some point I can drift just

00:15:09.169 --> 00:15:10.909
like anybody else. Right. If that's all there

00:15:10.909 --> 00:15:14.269
is. But if that teacher, that pastor teacher

00:15:14.269 --> 00:15:18.210
leans into a story, I find myself leaning forward

00:15:18.210 --> 00:15:20.529
in my chair and engaging because now I start

00:15:20.529 --> 00:15:24.470
to connect. And so good storytellers, it's an

00:15:24.470 --> 00:15:27.769
art. You can see the church, their reaction.

00:15:28.379 --> 00:15:29.740
Because you're up in the pulpit. Oh, I can physically

00:15:29.740 --> 00:15:32.440
see it. You can physically see when people become

00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:35.220
engaged or when they're, you know, just looking

00:15:35.220 --> 00:15:36.879
around. That atmosphere changes. It does. You

00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:39.820
know, I can tell if I've droned on about a point

00:15:39.820 --> 00:15:43.159
too long. Yeah, I rode that horse too far. And

00:15:43.159 --> 00:15:45.960
I can tell, I can feel the room. But man, you

00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:48.940
lean into a story and a personal story, especially

00:15:48.940 --> 00:15:53.019
something that honestly involves pain or discouragement

00:15:53.019 --> 00:15:55.080
or, you know, whatever, you know, any of the

00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:57.990
D words, right? Because that's universal. Everybody's

00:15:57.990 --> 00:16:01.649
experienced pain. And the Bible is full of stories

00:16:01.649 --> 00:16:05.090
about people who had massive setbacks. And the

00:16:05.090 --> 00:16:08.529
way we always say it is a setback is a setup

00:16:08.529 --> 00:16:11.980
for a God kind of comeback. And really that when

00:16:11.980 --> 00:16:14.159
you begin to view it that way and have that perspective

00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:16.500
on it, that's living up in a down world. Doesn't

00:16:16.500 --> 00:16:19.919
mean you're in a down world, but can you live

00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:22.679
up in the midst of that? Can you rise above it?

00:16:22.779 --> 00:16:24.519
Well, not every day. I mean, you're going to

00:16:24.519 --> 00:16:26.700
have those days, those moments, right? But when

00:16:26.700 --> 00:16:29.139
you can relate and connect to the Bibles, you

00:16:29.139 --> 00:16:31.700
know, the stories in the Bible, but now let's

00:16:31.700 --> 00:16:34.580
bring that into real life, into you and me and

00:16:34.580 --> 00:16:37.759
all of us telling our stories. There's nothing

00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:41.039
more powerful than your own personal story. Yeah.

00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:44.019
Now there's nothing. So betrayal connects with

00:16:44.019 --> 00:16:47.320
that story part in all of us where we can go,

00:16:47.379 --> 00:16:50.080
I have a chapter or two on that too in my book,

00:16:50.100 --> 00:16:52.460
in my life. And a lot of people, you know, we

00:16:52.460 --> 00:16:56.559
haven't always handled that correctly. No. But

00:16:56.559 --> 00:17:00.100
I believe that as it's continued to happen over

00:17:00.100 --> 00:17:03.899
time because we're living in a fallen world and

00:17:03.899 --> 00:17:08.660
we're going to have challenges like that. Hopefully,

00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:12.680
as we mature in the Word, then God helps us to

00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:15.619
be able to handle it rightly. You talked about

00:17:15.619 --> 00:17:19.420
responding versus reacting on Sunday, and hopefully

00:17:19.420 --> 00:17:24.359
we can respond better the more we grow in Christ.

00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:28.140
Because I know I haven't responded properly in

00:17:28.140 --> 00:17:30.650
the past. You talked about... The games, the

00:17:30.650 --> 00:17:32.910
different games. The games people play. I think

00:17:32.910 --> 00:17:34.609
you should share those. Yeah, I'll share some

00:17:34.609 --> 00:17:36.329
of that. Because that was so good. I was visiting

00:17:36.329 --> 00:17:39.650
with Tina yesterday, and she was quoting the

00:17:39.650 --> 00:17:42.049
different games. And her and Adam were talking

00:17:42.049 --> 00:17:43.829
about it on the way home, and she said, this

00:17:43.829 --> 00:17:47.430
is exactly what they've experienced. We all do

00:17:47.430 --> 00:17:49.869
this, right? And I was like, yeah, we really

00:17:49.869 --> 00:17:53.369
all have. played this game when it comes to being

00:17:53.369 --> 00:17:56.369
betrayed so when betrayal happens obviously you're

00:17:56.369 --> 00:17:58.750
the shock and all because we don't you usually

00:17:58.750 --> 00:18:01.829
see it but the very nature of betrayal is it's

00:18:01.829 --> 00:18:03.950
a surprise it's you didn't see it coming right

00:18:03.950 --> 00:18:05.829
if you saw it coming you might could have headed

00:18:05.829 --> 00:18:08.849
it off at the pass or or done something to so

00:18:08.849 --> 00:18:11.210
betrayal typically comes as a surprise and when

00:18:11.210 --> 00:18:14.009
it does it takes you out it takes you off guard

00:18:14.650 --> 00:18:17.990
It's like the death of someone because you lose

00:18:17.990 --> 00:18:20.450
something that was so meaningful and precious

00:18:20.450 --> 00:18:23.029
to you. And so we play these games, these head

00:18:23.029 --> 00:18:25.450
games. Remember that song, Foreigner? Head games.

00:18:25.549 --> 00:18:28.390
I always love that. So the games we play when

00:18:28.390 --> 00:18:30.369
we were betrayed, first of all, the shame game.

00:18:30.869 --> 00:18:33.509
And the shame game is after a betrayal, we begin

00:18:33.509 --> 00:18:36.569
to second guess our role in the betrayal. So

00:18:36.569 --> 00:18:38.609
let's say you're the victim. You're on the victim

00:18:38.609 --> 00:18:42.279
side of it. And someone has betrayed you. And

00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:45.240
then what happens is the shame game is you start

00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:47.539
to overthink. Can I ask the question? Do we have

00:18:47.539 --> 00:18:49.660
any overthinkers? And man, hands went up everywhere

00:18:49.660 --> 00:18:52.359
and elbows were bumping. Wives were bumping husbands,

00:18:52.680 --> 00:18:54.720
husbands bumping wives, finger pointing, all

00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:57.599
that. Because we all have a degree of that, right?

00:18:57.740 --> 00:19:00.180
And that overthinking and what happens when we're

00:19:00.180 --> 00:19:03.839
betrayed, we just go into this hole because this.

00:19:04.750 --> 00:19:07.789
The sin against relationship is one of the most

00:19:07.789 --> 00:19:11.250
egregious sins in scripture. The very reason

00:19:11.250 --> 00:19:13.250
you and I were created, all of us were created,

00:19:13.349 --> 00:19:15.250
all of our friends that are listening with us

00:19:15.250 --> 00:19:19.079
today and are watching. We were created for relationship.

00:19:19.339 --> 00:19:23.680
And when relationship gets violated, it's one

00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:26.980
of the darkest, hardest sins. And it's the sin

00:19:26.980 --> 00:19:30.500
that happened with Satan and God. I mean, it

00:19:30.500 --> 00:19:32.880
was a violation of relationship. It was rebellion.

00:19:33.299 --> 00:19:35.599
And that is what rebellion is. It's a violation

00:19:35.599 --> 00:19:38.119
against relationship. You don't rebel against

00:19:38.119 --> 00:19:42.140
things. You rebel against people. And so that's

00:19:42.140 --> 00:19:45.240
what happens. So the shame game, you start overthinking.

00:19:45.259 --> 00:19:47.990
Now, all of a sudden you start. almost like codependently

00:19:47.990 --> 00:19:50.789
taking on the guilt i must have done something

00:19:50.789 --> 00:19:52.930
wrong we actually asked these questions what

00:19:52.930 --> 00:19:55.369
did i do wrong could i have done something different

00:19:55.369 --> 00:19:58.750
is there something wrong with me am i broken

00:19:58.750 --> 00:20:02.170
beyond repair that's the shame game and oh the

00:20:02.170 --> 00:20:05.589
enemy can leverage that pain and leverage that

00:20:05.589 --> 00:20:08.269
shame oh the enemy loves shame he's attracted

00:20:08.269 --> 00:20:11.089
to that by the way you know god's attracted to

00:20:11.089 --> 00:20:13.769
faith the enemy is attracted to shame and so

00:20:13.769 --> 00:20:16.519
we just we just go into that hole Have you ever

00:20:16.519 --> 00:20:18.700
played that game? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Many of

00:20:18.700 --> 00:20:21.339
us. Did you win? Did you lose? No. It's always

00:20:21.339 --> 00:20:23.339
a losing proposition. It's a lose -lose. It's

00:20:23.339 --> 00:20:26.779
a lose deal, no doubt. That's a hard one. So

00:20:26.779 --> 00:20:30.400
here's the next one, the blame game. Blame game

00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:33.480
can work both ways. This is a refusal to own

00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:35.940
any part of the situation. So you're always blaming

00:20:35.940 --> 00:20:39.440
others. It's all their fault. They did this to

00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:43.380
me, you know, and not owning any part. And if

00:20:43.380 --> 00:20:45.299
there's anything I've learned through the years,

00:20:46.019 --> 00:20:48.519
hopefully as i'm maturing i am definitely getting

00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:51.400
older about maturing but i'm getting older is

00:20:51.400 --> 00:20:55.480
that there's always something for me to own in

00:20:55.480 --> 00:20:58.500
in a breach of a relationship it may have been

00:20:58.500 --> 00:21:02.059
i i didn't respond to a call or even a text sometimes

00:21:02.059 --> 00:21:04.779
these days text is kind of we put a lot of weight

00:21:04.779 --> 00:21:08.059
on that or i didn't respond well or or i didn't

00:21:08.059 --> 00:21:10.480
i didn't think it was important i didn't deem

00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:12.400
what they had to say anyway it could be a million

00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:16.359
things right and so When we become quick to own

00:21:16.359 --> 00:21:19.299
our part in it, which would be the same as we

00:21:19.299 --> 00:21:21.960
would say be quick to repent, which means to

00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:26.160
turn around and face, that is the best way to

00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:29.359
sort of eradicate that and not fall into this

00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:32.859
trap of suddenly blaming them. You know, it's

00:21:32.859 --> 00:21:36.160
funny how people quit things. Sometimes even

00:21:36.160 --> 00:21:39.019
a good parting can get messed up at the very

00:21:39.019 --> 00:21:41.500
end. Like somebody's leaving a job situation.

00:21:42.250 --> 00:21:44.910
They're moving on to another town. It might have

00:21:44.910 --> 00:21:49.170
been a positive thing, but our human nature tends

00:21:49.170 --> 00:21:52.309
to not do well with goodbyes. That's true. Particularly

00:21:52.309 --> 00:21:55.130
when you're leaving vicinity and proximity. And

00:21:55.130 --> 00:21:58.430
so we will create drama because it's easier to

00:21:58.430 --> 00:22:00.789
walk away from somebody that you're mad at than

00:22:00.789 --> 00:22:03.329
the people you love. Boy, is that not the truth.

00:22:03.410 --> 00:22:05.549
That's real, isn't it? Yeah. It's the same reason

00:22:05.549 --> 00:22:08.740
why... there's a dog who comes up to you in the

00:22:08.740 --> 00:22:10.779
yard. You know, that dog belongs to somebody

00:22:10.779 --> 00:22:13.660
else down the street and you don't want to be

00:22:13.660 --> 00:22:15.779
mean to it. You got to get in your car and go

00:22:15.779 --> 00:22:17.640
somewhere. So what do you do? You don't kick

00:22:17.640 --> 00:22:20.339
the dog, but you try to shoo it, go back home.

00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:22.680
And you feel bad about it, but you got, I got

00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:24.119
to get that dog home. It's going to get hurt.

00:22:24.180 --> 00:22:26.940
So for its own good, you yell at it and try to

00:22:26.940 --> 00:22:29.579
scare it. So to run off, I know it's heartbreaking.

00:22:29.940 --> 00:22:33.299
We do this with people though, where we don't.

00:22:33.940 --> 00:22:36.720
do well with goodbyes. When I left Dave Ramsey's

00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:40.279
organization to go back into full -time ministry,

00:22:40.500 --> 00:22:43.079
when we moved here, I went to my supervisor and

00:22:43.079 --> 00:22:46.519
I said, look, people don't do well with goodbyes.

00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:48.940
Can we break the mold on this? Because he would

00:22:48.940 --> 00:22:52.200
just go and put a box. Not Dave, but the supervisors,

00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:54.759
the culture. Put a box. It's kind of like, oh,

00:22:54.779 --> 00:22:56.420
you're leaving us? Well, goodbye. Don't even

00:22:56.420 --> 00:23:00.339
take two weeks. Just go. Here's a box. That was

00:23:00.339 --> 00:23:04.440
really. Not some good leavings. So I wanted to

00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:06.880
break that mold. I hope you did. Well, I wanted

00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:08.960
to set a new trend. I hope you did. So I went

00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:11.200
to my supervisor. He was amazing, obviously,

00:23:11.220 --> 00:23:15.380
Brian Bush and other people in the chain of command.

00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:17.420
And I went to them. I said, I'm going to ask

00:23:17.420 --> 00:23:19.519
a favor. And I know it's never been done here,

00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:22.200
but would you pray over me? Would you bring the

00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:24.380
department together? It's about 40 people, 50

00:23:24.380 --> 00:23:27.420
people. And would y 'all gather around me, lay

00:23:27.420 --> 00:23:30.920
hands on me, and pray me out of here? Pray me

00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:33.319
into the next season of ministry. Because you're

00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:36.839
not leaving out of. No. I'm not mad. Let's make

00:23:36.839 --> 00:23:39.019
this a healthy thing. Yes, exactly. A positive.

00:23:39.220 --> 00:23:41.680
A positive. So I don't want to leave. I feel

00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:44.599
like I'm being sent. And they did it. Which is

00:23:44.599 --> 00:23:49.099
what we've done with people. Like when we were

00:23:49.099 --> 00:23:51.740
at a military church, our church was mostly military.

00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:54.099
That was back in Abilene. Yeah. And every time

00:23:54.099 --> 00:23:59.049
that a person was getting. PCS, is that the way

00:23:59.049 --> 00:24:02.569
you call it? PCS, we would bring them up and

00:24:02.569 --> 00:24:05.210
we would pray and send them off. They weren't

00:24:05.210 --> 00:24:07.609
leaving because they were mad. They were leaving

00:24:07.609 --> 00:24:10.089
because they had to go to their next assignment.

00:24:10.150 --> 00:24:12.490
So we need to get better at saying goodbye. We

00:24:12.490 --> 00:24:15.309
do. So that we don't, so in betrayal, so when

00:24:15.309 --> 00:24:18.750
betrayal happens, wow, that's a punch. That's

00:24:18.750 --> 00:24:21.769
a hit. That is. How do you override anger and

00:24:21.769 --> 00:24:28.130
bitterness so that from your end, It can be a

00:24:28.130 --> 00:24:31.609
blessing. Ooh, that's a tough one. Well, I had

00:24:31.609 --> 00:24:33.430
a young girl come up to me at church a few weeks

00:24:33.430 --> 00:24:38.609
ago who had been betrayed by a relative, kind

00:24:38.609 --> 00:24:42.490
of a relative of a relative. And she said, I

00:24:42.490 --> 00:24:45.890
don't know how to get over this. And I said,

00:24:45.930 --> 00:24:49.609
the best way to get over something like this

00:24:49.609 --> 00:24:54.250
is to pray for them and pray for justice. But

00:24:54.250 --> 00:24:55.990
you're not praying for anything bad to happen,

00:24:56.049 --> 00:24:59.549
but you're putting it in God's hands to handle

00:24:59.549 --> 00:25:02.910
rather than you having to carry that. And I'll

00:25:02.910 --> 00:25:05.029
never forget because she came up to me on Sunday

00:25:05.029 --> 00:25:07.650
and said, that worked. I've been praying for

00:25:07.650 --> 00:25:10.750
that person. And she said, I'm graduating from

00:25:10.750 --> 00:25:15.730
high school next month, and I have made the choice

00:25:15.730 --> 00:25:18.839
not to invite them. But I feel like that's the

00:25:18.839 --> 00:25:21.160
boundary I need to set up because I told her,

00:25:21.180 --> 00:25:23.140
you can pray for someone, but set up boundaries.

00:25:23.339 --> 00:25:26.460
Now, that's a response, not a reaction. That's

00:25:26.460 --> 00:25:28.759
what you want to see. This was a 17 -year -old

00:25:28.759 --> 00:25:32.420
girl who responded rightly because she came and

00:25:32.420 --> 00:25:36.640
asked for help and said, what can I do? I know.

00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:38.779
She's actually going to be going to a Christian

00:25:38.779 --> 00:25:43.279
college, which I love, and she's super sweet.

00:25:43.539 --> 00:25:46.700
But the fact that she even came and asked, because

00:25:46.700 --> 00:25:49.420
most people, people just live with that anger,

00:25:49.519 --> 00:25:52.640
that angst towards that person. But she literally

00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:55.900
said, I need help. I need help. And I think that's

00:25:55.900 --> 00:25:59.400
very mature. It probably took me until I was

00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:02.279
55 years old to get to that point. And here she

00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:06.049
is 17. It was beautiful. One of the things you

00:26:06.049 --> 00:26:07.970
and I have said for years, one of our Pastor

00:26:07.970 --> 00:26:12.230
Jay -isms, is we want to turn contempt into compassion.

00:26:12.789 --> 00:26:15.910
And boy, the best way to do that is to start

00:26:15.910 --> 00:26:19.009
praying for somebody you're mad at. That has

00:26:19.009 --> 00:26:21.630
been one of the keys for me through the years

00:26:21.630 --> 00:26:25.349
of getting over things. So I don't hold on to

00:26:25.349 --> 00:26:28.049
resentment. I don't let a root of bitterness

00:26:28.049 --> 00:26:30.750
grow down in me. It's to begin to pray for that

00:26:30.750 --> 00:26:32.589
person. But it doesn't mean that we're going

00:26:32.589 --> 00:26:36.630
to just, Live pain free because not at all. The

00:26:36.630 --> 00:26:38.809
pain we had, especially from this last betrayal

00:26:38.809 --> 00:26:44.190
we had. It's real. It's so deep that I hurt for

00:26:44.190 --> 00:26:50.049
our relationship. The pain is still, I don't

00:26:50.049 --> 00:26:53.549
know, it's not buried, but it's there in the

00:26:53.549 --> 00:26:56.410
fact that I have compassion for these people.

00:26:56.509 --> 00:27:00.450
But I also wish that it didn't happen and that

00:27:00.450 --> 00:27:04.079
we could reconcile, which we tried. They wouldn't.

00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:10.519
One person wouldn't. And it's still hard to comprehend

00:27:10.519 --> 00:27:13.960
that we went through it. And so the hurt, God

00:27:13.960 --> 00:27:16.819
can take away the pain of that hurt, but the

00:27:16.819 --> 00:27:18.740
hurt is still there, I guess is the best way

00:27:18.740 --> 00:27:22.500
to put it. Because it's a broken relationship.

00:27:22.660 --> 00:27:24.519
It's like going through a divorce, which we've

00:27:24.519 --> 00:27:28.319
both been through. Some people go through divorces

00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:31.660
and they don't want that divorce. And so they

00:27:31.660 --> 00:27:35.380
have to live with the constant pain. But the

00:27:35.380 --> 00:27:39.380
person that can bring them through that, obviously,

00:27:39.380 --> 00:27:42.059
is Jesus. He's the only one that can bring you

00:27:42.059 --> 00:27:44.160
through the pain. Because the answer is not a

00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:47.420
technique. It's not a technique. It's not a trick

00:27:47.420 --> 00:27:51.579
or four easy ways to shake off bitterness. The

00:27:51.579 --> 00:27:57.410
answer is a person. Gosh, talk about a revelation.

00:27:57.809 --> 00:28:00.849
I actually wrote my daily grind about the person

00:28:00.849 --> 00:28:04.589
of Jesus Christ himself. That's what we need.

00:28:04.630 --> 00:28:07.150
That's who we need. And yet we tend to always

00:28:07.150 --> 00:28:09.309
turn to other things first. And we go to him

00:28:09.309 --> 00:28:12.829
last. Yeah, we go to alcohol. I looked at my

00:28:12.829 --> 00:28:15.309
cup. It's coffee, I promise. It's black rifle.

00:28:15.789 --> 00:28:18.289
And it's my happy cup. Wake up and do my happy

00:28:18.289 --> 00:28:21.529
dance. Mercy me cup. So anyway. But we turn to

00:28:21.529 --> 00:28:24.470
things. Dudes can turn to porn. I guess females

00:28:24.470 --> 00:28:26.750
too, right? I mean, we turn to distractions.

00:28:27.069 --> 00:28:29.089
Because we want that pain, so we want to numb

00:28:29.089 --> 00:28:32.470
out. Yeah, or sugar cookies. You know, whatever.

00:28:32.849 --> 00:28:34.609
Sugar cookies. Well, we have a freezer full of

00:28:34.609 --> 00:28:36.470
them here at the church. No, they're almond cookies.

00:28:36.529 --> 00:28:38.750
It's torture. It is. I know, but they've still

00:28:38.750 --> 00:28:40.769
got sugar. Yes, they are sugar. They're gluten

00:28:40.769 --> 00:28:44.759
-free. No, they're not. Yeah, it's almonds. I

00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:47.240
don't think that—it's probably an almond extract,

00:28:47.559 --> 00:28:49.799
Jimmy. I don't think it's an almond cookie. Those

00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:52.920
are actually— Yes. That's even worse. I know.

00:28:53.099 --> 00:28:55.759
Okay, let's don't go there. So we digress. Here's

00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:58.099
another one, the name game. The name game. The

00:28:58.099 --> 00:28:59.880
name game can go a couple of different ways where

00:28:59.880 --> 00:29:04.519
we'll start calling. We'll label somebody. They

00:29:04.519 --> 00:29:07.660
are awful. They did this to me. And what happens

00:29:07.660 --> 00:29:10.410
is— It's hard to pray for somebody when you're

00:29:10.410 --> 00:29:13.650
at a point where you're labeling them, categorizing

00:29:13.650 --> 00:29:16.490
them. And we do that because if I can put them

00:29:16.490 --> 00:29:19.130
in a box, I can set the box over here. So it's

00:29:19.130 --> 00:29:21.150
a coping mechanism where we're trying to cope

00:29:21.150 --> 00:29:25.230
with pain, cope with betrayal. Betrayal is such

00:29:25.230 --> 00:29:28.890
a breach of relationship. We all, I mean, one

00:29:28.890 --> 00:29:31.750
of our basic human needs is belonging. It is.

00:29:31.769 --> 00:29:34.750
To be loved, to belong, to fit in. And so when

00:29:34.750 --> 00:29:38.190
there's a breach of that, That's like one of

00:29:38.190 --> 00:29:40.950
the deepest cuts. So one of the ways we cope

00:29:40.950 --> 00:29:43.809
with it is we call them names. We label them.

00:29:43.950 --> 00:29:46.150
Well, they were they they didn't care. They were

00:29:46.150 --> 00:29:47.829
in fact, they weren't even a good friend anyway.

00:29:47.970 --> 00:29:51.190
I never really I mean, we just start rationalizing

00:29:51.190 --> 00:29:53.950
and negotiating in our own mind a way that we

00:29:53.950 --> 00:29:56.349
can categorize them so that we don't have to

00:29:56.349 --> 00:29:59.009
feel anything. Right. Except for anger. Right.

00:29:59.109 --> 00:30:01.509
Right. So we put them over here in their little

00:30:01.509 --> 00:30:04.849
category in box. And that's just that's a way

00:30:04.849 --> 00:30:08.089
of dodging the issue. And one of the things that

00:30:08.089 --> 00:30:13.009
is so important in the healing process is to

00:30:13.009 --> 00:30:17.809
refuse that and to actually feel the pain you're

00:30:17.809 --> 00:30:20.950
having. To actually say, you know what? This

00:30:20.950 --> 00:30:23.849
hurts. It sucks to be me today. I'm going to

00:30:23.849 --> 00:30:28.150
embrace that instead of throw it off. Because

00:30:28.150 --> 00:30:31.130
I'm going to trust God in this pain that he can

00:30:31.130 --> 00:30:34.349
heal me. He can give me his Holy Spirit to navigate

00:30:34.349 --> 00:30:37.089
it. Again, the answer is a person, not a technique.

00:30:37.170 --> 00:30:39.950
He's the comforter. He is. He's the teacher.

00:30:40.009 --> 00:30:43.549
He's the counselor. Friend. He's everything we

00:30:43.549 --> 00:30:46.190
need. So I lean into that. So that name game,

00:30:46.410 --> 00:30:48.410
sorry, I didn't want to get too far off on that,

00:30:48.450 --> 00:30:50.250
but it's important. I think it'll help people,

00:30:50.309 --> 00:30:53.069
is that we use these different words or labels.

00:30:53.690 --> 00:30:58.130
To soften, to reframe, or even to sometimes deny

00:30:58.130 --> 00:31:00.130
and obscure what happened. And that's when it

00:31:00.130 --> 00:31:02.049
gets dangerous. Absolutely. So here's another

00:31:02.049 --> 00:31:06.569
one. This is the last one. The MAME game. Do

00:31:06.569 --> 00:31:08.289
you know I had to look up MAME four times to

00:31:08.289 --> 00:31:10.230
make sure I was spelling it right? I know. I

00:31:10.230 --> 00:31:13.150
even looked at your notes. It's not. Literally,

00:31:13.390 --> 00:31:17.190
it's M -A -I -M. So when one animal maims another

00:31:17.190 --> 00:31:19.630
animal, it's M -A -I -M. I know. That is so weird.

00:31:19.789 --> 00:31:21.109
What can I say? You learn something new every

00:31:21.109 --> 00:31:24.390
day. So the maim game, it means seeking to hurt,

00:31:24.470 --> 00:31:28.390
damage, or punish the betrayer in response to

00:31:28.390 --> 00:31:31.369
the pain you've experienced. It's retaliation.

00:31:31.369 --> 00:31:35.789
It's revenge. It's going on social media and

00:31:35.789 --> 00:31:38.829
getting stupid with your keyboard because you

00:31:38.829 --> 00:31:43.049
so want them to hurt. in that moment maturity

00:31:43.049 --> 00:31:46.569
is willing to delay gratification because the

00:31:46.569 --> 00:31:48.670
gratification would be i'm going to hurt them

00:31:48.670 --> 00:31:50.650
they just hurt me that's gratification instant

00:31:50.650 --> 00:31:53.490
gratification so but maturity will take their

00:31:53.490 --> 00:31:55.569
foot off the gas pedal and say i'm going to step

00:31:55.569 --> 00:31:57.630
back or i'm going to push back from the table

00:31:57.630 --> 00:32:00.410
i need to let this settle because if i say something

00:32:00.410 --> 00:32:03.539
right now yes it's going to be bad And there

00:32:03.539 --> 00:32:05.200
have been many times, you know me, when I've

00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:07.380
been hurt, what do I do? I get quiet, don't I?

00:32:07.480 --> 00:32:10.000
Because I don't want to say something that I

00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:12.579
will regret and say it out of emotions and anger.

00:32:12.579 --> 00:32:15.440
And a lot of people don't just, I mean, they

00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:19.369
will begin to talk and they'll tell others. you

00:32:19.369 --> 00:32:21.430
know, how they were hurt and how that person

00:32:21.430 --> 00:32:23.190
hurt them. There is a relational component to

00:32:23.190 --> 00:32:25.609
that. It's called validation. Yes. We want to

00:32:25.609 --> 00:32:27.970
be validated in our pain. We want people to come

00:32:27.970 --> 00:32:30.089
around us, pat us on the shoulder or the back

00:32:30.089 --> 00:32:33.069
and say, oh, you deserve to be angry. What they

00:32:33.069 --> 00:32:36.210
did to you is wrong. We all do this. Again, this

00:32:36.210 --> 00:32:39.150
goes back to that Maslow's hierarchy of needs,

00:32:39.269 --> 00:32:41.920
right? One of them is. belonging. We need to

00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:44.900
belong. So we want affirmation and we want people

00:32:44.900 --> 00:32:48.660
to validate our pain. Join us. Right. I remember

00:32:48.660 --> 00:32:51.160
Rice Brooks. I've, I've used this quote many

00:32:51.160 --> 00:32:52.720
times through the years, but it was one of the

00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:54.920
most compelling things I ever heard Dr. Rice

00:32:54.920 --> 00:32:58.380
Brooks say. And he said this, he said, for every

00:32:58.380 --> 00:33:01.420
step you take away from the cross, there'll be

00:33:01.420 --> 00:33:04.299
10 or 12 Christians patting you on the back,

00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:07.819
telling you you're doing the right thing. You

00:33:07.819 --> 00:33:10.539
know, and what he meant by stepping away from

00:33:10.539 --> 00:33:13.640
the cross could be anger, retaliation, blame,

00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:15.299
all the things we've talked about, the shame,

00:33:15.460 --> 00:33:17.900
all these things we've talked about in it. And

00:33:17.900 --> 00:33:20.420
most people, a lot of people leave the church

00:33:20.420 --> 00:33:23.420
because they blame the whole church. But yet

00:33:23.420 --> 00:33:25.079
it was a few people. The church did this to me.

00:33:25.319 --> 00:33:28.839
I thought, what? Or they'll blame God. And God

00:33:28.839 --> 00:33:32.680
doesn't cause evil to happen to people. He doesn't

00:33:32.680 --> 00:33:36.480
do that. We have our own will. And we can't.

00:33:36.809 --> 00:33:42.289
We can't ignore the role that the devil has to

00:33:42.289 --> 00:33:46.109
play, that Satan, the demonic, spiritual warfare.

00:33:46.250 --> 00:33:48.869
Yes, number one. If he can get people to turn

00:33:48.869 --> 00:33:51.490
on each other. Think about it. What would the

00:33:51.490 --> 00:33:54.650
devil hate the most about any of this, about

00:33:54.650 --> 00:33:57.869
God's creation? He's created. Yes, he's created.

00:33:58.170 --> 00:34:01.089
The object of God's love. So everything about

00:34:01.089 --> 00:34:04.579
the enemy. is to turn us on each other. That's

00:34:04.579 --> 00:34:08.460
the violation of relationship. And so whenever

00:34:08.460 --> 00:34:11.780
we have these breaches in relationships, the

00:34:11.780 --> 00:34:13.940
Bible tells us that we've been given the ministry

00:34:13.940 --> 00:34:17.960
of reconciliation. But here's the... The key

00:34:17.960 --> 00:34:20.920
factor in that, it takes two to reconcile. It

00:34:20.920 --> 00:34:23.980
does. It takes two sides. You can have the best

00:34:23.980 --> 00:34:25.960
intentions, try to go reconcile with somebody,

00:34:26.119 --> 00:34:29.519
but if they're not ready and they're still offended

00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:33.260
or whatever caused it, then you're spitting in

00:34:33.260 --> 00:34:35.800
the wind. Right. I mean, literally. But you have

00:34:35.800 --> 00:34:38.300
to be able to deal with that in your heart so

00:34:38.300 --> 00:34:41.300
that you don't let that root of bitterness take.

00:34:41.340 --> 00:34:43.840
So help us with that. So what do we do when...

00:34:44.170 --> 00:34:47.210
The other person won't reconcile. So the temptation

00:34:47.210 --> 00:34:50.090
is to get everybody to validate your pain and

00:34:50.090 --> 00:34:52.369
to say you have a right to be angry and get all

00:34:52.369 --> 00:34:54.949
the pats on the back and sympathy, which we all

00:34:54.949 --> 00:34:57.570
have done at one point or another. Hopefully

00:34:57.570 --> 00:35:01.349
we're growing up, right? So how do we get over

00:35:01.349 --> 00:35:08.510
that? How do we forgive somebody who's not repentant

00:35:08.510 --> 00:35:10.730
and who doesn't want to reconcile? I love what

00:35:10.730 --> 00:35:13.800
you said on Sunday because you talked about shaking

00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:16.320
the dust off your feet, but literally you have

00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:18.300
to shake the dust off your feet and you have

00:35:18.300 --> 00:35:21.420
to move on and you have to allow, give it to

00:35:21.420 --> 00:35:24.300
God for him to deal with them. They're the ones

00:35:24.300 --> 00:35:29.400
who are going to be judged for them not coming

00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:31.440
in alignment with what God's words, especially

00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:33.139
if they're a Christian. If they're not a Christian,

00:35:33.239 --> 00:35:36.440
you can't expect, you know, God to do a work

00:35:36.440 --> 00:35:38.900
in them because they don't know God, but you

00:35:38.900 --> 00:35:41.639
can also ask God to be the judge of that person.

00:35:42.440 --> 00:35:45.639
But yeah, you definitely have to shake it off.

00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:48.539
We have to get to a point to where we can shake

00:35:48.539 --> 00:35:51.400
off that pain. I had an experience where I did

00:35:51.400 --> 00:35:54.659
that. I was very young in ministry as a youth

00:35:54.659 --> 00:35:57.679
minister. And this older deacon had been really

00:35:57.679 --> 00:36:00.300
mean to me. I mean, just he wouldn't cut me any

00:36:00.300 --> 00:36:02.980
slack whatsoever. We were winning kids to Jesus.

00:36:03.079 --> 00:36:05.039
The youth group was blowing up. Things were going

00:36:05.039 --> 00:36:07.559
great. But it didn't look like what he wanted

00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:08.460
it to look like. It didn't look like what he

00:36:08.460 --> 00:36:10.460
wanted it to look like. He wanted us to get.

00:36:10.750 --> 00:36:13.510
church kids to church, not those wild kids that

00:36:13.510 --> 00:36:16.949
listen to Metallica and had skateboards. So I

00:36:16.949 --> 00:36:19.230
was bringing in kind of the rougher crowd. Not

00:36:19.230 --> 00:36:22.150
rougher crowd, that's a terrible way to say it,

00:36:22.170 --> 00:36:24.190
but kids that were not church kids, which is

00:36:24.190 --> 00:36:26.590
my background. Which is the whole point of Christianity.

00:36:26.710 --> 00:36:28.909
So I'm trying to reach guys that were like me,

00:36:29.010 --> 00:36:31.769
right? And so they're coming in. So anyway, I

00:36:31.769 --> 00:36:33.789
go to his house because I just want to reconcile.

00:36:33.849 --> 00:36:36.889
I'm like, I don't like living with that. I go

00:36:36.889 --> 00:36:39.719
to him. and he literally the short story is he

00:36:39.719 --> 00:36:42.139
threw me out of his house not physically he just

00:36:42.139 --> 00:36:45.519
but he came at me i mean poor man was so frail

00:36:45.519 --> 00:36:47.840
he would have probably snapped in two but but

00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:51.539
he was old and mean he was a curmudgeon and he

00:36:51.539 --> 00:36:54.920
he basically pushed not physically but pushed

00:36:54.920 --> 00:36:57.360
me out of his house which was and i walked into

00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:00.480
my car and literally The Holy Spirit showed me

00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:03.139
a picture of what they did in the Bible that

00:37:03.139 --> 00:37:05.519
would shake the dust off their feet. So I got

00:37:05.519 --> 00:37:08.539
to my car and I just, not in a big dramatic way,

00:37:08.579 --> 00:37:10.780
no one was looking, but I just sort of clicked

00:37:10.780 --> 00:37:12.840
my heels together, just symbolic of knocking

00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:15.840
the dust off my shoes. And I shook the dust off

00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:18.699
my feet. And that's actually a Hebraic, Israeli

00:37:18.699 --> 00:37:23.099
thing that they do when there's a breach and

00:37:23.099 --> 00:37:25.260
when they're... they shake the dust off their

00:37:25.260 --> 00:37:27.519
feet. Or if they don't receive what you bring

00:37:27.519 --> 00:37:30.059
to them, you shake the dust off your feet. In

00:37:30.059 --> 00:37:33.260
the book of Acts, Paul talking about this. Yeah,

00:37:33.340 --> 00:37:35.900
when you leave and they don't receive, and Jesus

00:37:35.900 --> 00:37:38.099
said, if they don't receive your peace. So there

00:37:38.099 --> 00:37:41.840
is that there. So just to land the plane on this,

00:37:42.059 --> 00:37:44.559
we're talking about betrayal. It's a deep pain.

00:37:44.679 --> 00:37:47.360
It's a deep wound, one of the worst. And I know

00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:49.300
that there are people that are watching and or

00:37:49.300 --> 00:37:53.230
listening who have. Definitely gone through this.

00:37:53.690 --> 00:37:56.690
What are some things that we can help them with?

00:37:56.730 --> 00:38:00.769
Just in a short, what is the best thing, maybe

00:38:00.769 --> 00:38:04.409
the primary thing? You've been betrayed. What

00:38:04.409 --> 00:38:08.269
do you do next? Well, you have to go to God and

00:38:08.269 --> 00:38:10.949
ask him, is there any truth to anything that

00:38:10.949 --> 00:38:14.559
has happened? Wow, you nailed that. There's always

00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:17.500
some sort of little bit of truth. A kernel of

00:38:17.500 --> 00:38:20.159
truth. A kernel, like you say. And so I think

00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:22.000
that's the first thing that we need to do is

00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:24.440
examine ourselves. So here's a simple way to

00:38:24.440 --> 00:38:26.880
do it for our friends that are watching or listening.

00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:30.840
Just go to Jesus. Straight to Jesus. Say, Jesus,

00:38:31.139 --> 00:38:36.940
is this true? Is this true? Have I missed something?

00:38:38.340 --> 00:38:40.900
And I ask a dangerous question. What are my blind

00:38:40.900 --> 00:38:44.920
spots? And he shows me. He comes to a conversation

00:38:44.920 --> 00:38:49.260
or whatever. Did I miss something? And when you

00:38:49.260 --> 00:38:53.460
do that, you open yourself up to being teachable.

00:38:53.760 --> 00:38:55.880
I think that one of the hardest or the worst

00:38:55.880 --> 00:38:58.440
things that we can do is become unteachable.

00:38:59.219 --> 00:39:01.500
No matter how old we are, no matter what we've

00:39:01.500 --> 00:39:03.719
been through, no matter what our degree or pedigree

00:39:03.719 --> 00:39:07.059
is or our social standing, if we are unteachable.

00:39:07.400 --> 00:39:11.679
then we're not usable. Right. And so that's,

00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:15.119
you nailed it, Jesus. Yeah. Is this true? Is

00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:16.780
this true? And then be ready to hear the answer.

00:39:16.920 --> 00:39:19.679
I know. Because it may not be totally true, but

00:39:19.679 --> 00:39:22.079
there may be a... There may be some kind of nugget

00:39:22.079 --> 00:39:24.300
in there that you need to, that God wants you

00:39:24.300 --> 00:39:25.940
to work on. And I have had experiences where

00:39:25.940 --> 00:39:28.880
I have owned that nugget, picked up the phone,

00:39:29.039 --> 00:39:31.260
called the individual and repented of that. And

00:39:31.260 --> 00:39:34.860
you did. But he's the one who betrayed me. But

00:39:34.860 --> 00:39:37.380
he betrayed you. And it cost us dearly. It cost

00:39:37.380 --> 00:39:40.800
us our life savings, cost us one of our cars,

00:39:40.860 --> 00:39:44.599
our house. I mean, we lost huge on that. It sent

00:39:44.599 --> 00:39:48.360
us into a deep, deep pit. And yet we just decided

00:39:48.360 --> 00:39:51.519
not to despair. We decided not to let it destroy

00:39:51.519 --> 00:39:54.699
us or to quit what we know God's called us to

00:39:54.699 --> 00:39:59.119
do. Which is interesting because you talked about

00:39:59.119 --> 00:40:01.739
a lot of people that you went to school with

00:40:01.739 --> 00:40:03.860
that are pastors that are not in the ministry

00:40:03.860 --> 00:40:07.019
anymore. And a lot of it has to do with betrayal

00:40:07.019 --> 00:40:10.500
or expectations not being met. You think you're

00:40:10.500 --> 00:40:13.139
going to become a pastor and you're going to

00:40:13.139 --> 00:40:14.920
grow a large church and everybody's going to

00:40:14.920 --> 00:40:18.739
love you. And it's not necessarily that way.

00:40:18.840 --> 00:40:23.019
I mean, we go through our own tests and trials.

00:40:23.260 --> 00:40:28.000
And a lot of people don't have the skin to be

00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:30.039
able, that thick skin to be able to handle that.

00:40:30.139 --> 00:40:33.750
And I think that's really sad. What's the statistic

00:40:33.750 --> 00:40:37.070
of pastors that leave? Around 7 ,000 a month

00:40:37.070 --> 00:40:39.590
in America. It's unbelievable to me. That was

00:40:39.590 --> 00:40:42.170
one of the more recent after COVID. That's just

00:40:42.170 --> 00:40:43.989
unbelievable. So let's land the plane with a

00:40:43.989 --> 00:40:46.630
prayer. How about we pray for our friends? First

00:40:46.630 --> 00:40:48.510
of all, I want you to go to livingupandadownworld

00:40:48.510 --> 00:40:51.639
.com and then they can... Click on subscribe.

00:40:51.739 --> 00:40:54.260
They can leave a review, which is very helpful,

00:40:54.320 --> 00:40:57.599
by the way. Or on YouTube, give us a like, subscribe

00:40:57.599 --> 00:40:59.800
to our channel. That way you'll know when things

00:40:59.800 --> 00:41:01.920
are coming out. If you subscribe on our website,

00:41:02.139 --> 00:41:04.539
we send out a newsletter. Super simple. It's

00:41:04.539 --> 00:41:07.079
not fancy. It's just to let you know the next

00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:09.539
podcast is up, so you get a heads up on that.

00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:12.699
And also, if you're interested in hearing this

00:41:12.699 --> 00:41:16.599
message on betrayal, you can go to bridgefbg

00:41:16.599 --> 00:41:20.619
.com. And you can go down there and that will

00:41:20.619 --> 00:41:24.219
be archived on our church website. By the way,

00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:26.059
we didn't mention this, we're pastors of a church.

00:41:26.440 --> 00:41:29.019
We pastor a church called Bridge Church in Fredericksburg,

00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:32.000
Texas, and it's our joy to do what we do. And

00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:34.340
so thank you for being with us today. So can

00:41:34.340 --> 00:41:36.460
I pray us out? Yeah, pray us out. Father, in

00:41:36.460 --> 00:41:39.300
Jesus' name, I pray for every person who will

00:41:39.300 --> 00:41:42.719
hear this or see this podcast and that they will

00:41:42.719 --> 00:41:46.340
find encouragement and realize that they are

00:41:46.340 --> 00:41:49.300
not alone. In their pain, they're not alone.

00:41:49.500 --> 00:41:51.300
In their suffering, they're not alone. In betrayal,

00:41:51.579 --> 00:41:54.360
that it is common. It is one of the things that

00:41:54.360 --> 00:41:56.920
is common to all people, all mankind, humankind.

00:41:57.579 --> 00:42:00.739
But Father, I'm asking as a favor for them, even

00:42:00.739 --> 00:42:03.139
as they listen, that something that was said

00:42:03.139 --> 00:42:06.860
today would be a leverage point towards healing

00:42:06.860 --> 00:42:11.360
and wholeness and grace and mercy. And that,

00:42:11.400 --> 00:42:14.340
Father, they would find themselves moving from

00:42:14.340 --> 00:42:18.690
contempt to compassion. and on the road to healing

00:42:18.690 --> 00:42:22.110
and wholeness. We pray it in Jesus' name. Amen.

00:42:22.570 --> 00:42:24.590
If you have any questions on this topic, feel

00:42:24.590 --> 00:42:26.630
free to write. You can write us on our website,

00:42:26.829 --> 00:42:29.329
livingupinthedownworld .com, and I'll be glad

00:42:29.329 --> 00:42:31.289
to get back with you or Annette, both of us.

00:42:31.349 --> 00:42:34.250
Whatever we can do to encourage you on the road

00:42:34.250 --> 00:42:37.469
to wholeness, healing, and living up in the down

00:42:37.469 --> 00:42:40.250
world. You guys have an amazing week. On purpose,

00:42:40.329 --> 00:42:42.789
thank you for being back. I'm so happy you're

00:42:42.789 --> 00:42:42.989
here.